In a spin, are both wings stalled?How does the advancing wing in a flat spin create nose thrust?Is spin recovery possible in an airliner?How long is spin training good for in the USA?Is it possible to recover from a flat spin?If a commercial airliner enters into a spin at high altitude, is it possible to recover?How to enter an inverted spin?What is a good spin aircraft for someone that is heavy?What altitude to fly on a STAR when it reads “expect”?Does it really take 9000 feet to recover from a spin in a P-51 Mustang?Why aren't airliners spin-tested?How does the advancing wing in a flat spin create nose thrust?

How can I fix this gap between bookcases I made?

How long does it take to type this?

Can I make popcorn with any corn?

How to get the available space of $HOME as a variable in shell scripting?

What defenses are there against being summoned by the Gate spell?

declaring a variable twice in IIFE

Possibly bubble sort algorithm

Download, install and reboot computer at night if needed

Compute hash value according to multiplication method

Infinite past with a beginning?

Modification to Chariots for Heavy Cavalry Analogue for 4-armed race

A function which translates a sentence to title-case

How to re-create Edward Weson's Pepper No. 30?

Why is "Reports" in sentence down without "The"

How old can references or sources in a thesis be?

What would the Romans have called "sorcery"?

How can I automatically replace [[ and ]] with the [LeftDoubleBracket] and [RightDoubleBracket] operators?

Banach space and Hilbert space topology

If Manufacturer spice model and Datasheet give different values which should I use?

I’m planning on buying a laser printer but concerned about the life cycle of toner in the machine

whey we use polarized capacitor?

How can the DM most effectively choose 1 out of an odd number of players to be targeted by an attack or effect?

Validation accuracy vs Testing accuracy

What is the offset in a seaplane's hull?



In a spin, are both wings stalled?


How does the advancing wing in a flat spin create nose thrust?Is spin recovery possible in an airliner?How long is spin training good for in the USA?Is it possible to recover from a flat spin?If a commercial airliner enters into a spin at high altitude, is it possible to recover?How to enter an inverted spin?What is a good spin aircraft for someone that is heavy?What altitude to fly on a STAR when it reads “expect”?Does it really take 9000 feet to recover from a spin in a P-51 Mustang?Why aren't airliners spin-tested?How does the advancing wing in a flat spin create nose thrust?













14












$begingroup$


I missed a test question which asked that if an airplane was spinning to the left which wing was stalled. The supposed correct answer was that both wings are stalled (I had answered that the left wing only was stalled). However after looking at the this article on Wikipedia it seems to indicate that only one wing needs to be stalled to spin:




In a normal spin, the wing on the inside of the turn stalls while the outside wing remains flying. It is possible for both wings to stall, but the angle of attack of each wing, and consequently its lift and drag, are different. Either situation causes the aircraft to autorotate toward the stalled wing due to its higher drag and loss of lift.




So my question is was it fair for me to have missed that test question since according to Wikipedia a spin can occur with only one wing stalled?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 8




    $begingroup$
    I would like to note, since the question is tagged with "faa-knowledge-test", the answer is "yes" because the FAA is like the trivia guy at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday night... whether they're right or they're wrong, they're always right; that's just how the game is played.
    $endgroup$
    – Ryan Mortensen
    2 days ago















14












$begingroup$


I missed a test question which asked that if an airplane was spinning to the left which wing was stalled. The supposed correct answer was that both wings are stalled (I had answered that the left wing only was stalled). However after looking at the this article on Wikipedia it seems to indicate that only one wing needs to be stalled to spin:




In a normal spin, the wing on the inside of the turn stalls while the outside wing remains flying. It is possible for both wings to stall, but the angle of attack of each wing, and consequently its lift and drag, are different. Either situation causes the aircraft to autorotate toward the stalled wing due to its higher drag and loss of lift.




So my question is was it fair for me to have missed that test question since according to Wikipedia a spin can occur with only one wing stalled?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 8




    $begingroup$
    I would like to note, since the question is tagged with "faa-knowledge-test", the answer is "yes" because the FAA is like the trivia guy at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday night... whether they're right or they're wrong, they're always right; that's just how the game is played.
    $endgroup$
    – Ryan Mortensen
    2 days ago













14












14








14


2



$begingroup$


I missed a test question which asked that if an airplane was spinning to the left which wing was stalled. The supposed correct answer was that both wings are stalled (I had answered that the left wing only was stalled). However after looking at the this article on Wikipedia it seems to indicate that only one wing needs to be stalled to spin:




In a normal spin, the wing on the inside of the turn stalls while the outside wing remains flying. It is possible for both wings to stall, but the angle of attack of each wing, and consequently its lift and drag, are different. Either situation causes the aircraft to autorotate toward the stalled wing due to its higher drag and loss of lift.




So my question is was it fair for me to have missed that test question since according to Wikipedia a spin can occur with only one wing stalled?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




I missed a test question which asked that if an airplane was spinning to the left which wing was stalled. The supposed correct answer was that both wings are stalled (I had answered that the left wing only was stalled). However after looking at the this article on Wikipedia it seems to indicate that only one wing needs to be stalled to spin:




In a normal spin, the wing on the inside of the turn stalls while the outside wing remains flying. It is possible for both wings to stall, but the angle of attack of each wing, and consequently its lift and drag, are different. Either situation causes the aircraft to autorotate toward the stalled wing due to its higher drag and loss of lift.




So my question is was it fair for me to have missed that test question since according to Wikipedia a spin can occur with only one wing stalled?







spins faa-knowledge-test






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









Sean

5,84732872




5,84732872










asked Apr 4 at 19:41









DLHDLH

2,661931




2,661931







  • 8




    $begingroup$
    I would like to note, since the question is tagged with "faa-knowledge-test", the answer is "yes" because the FAA is like the trivia guy at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday night... whether they're right or they're wrong, they're always right; that's just how the game is played.
    $endgroup$
    – Ryan Mortensen
    2 days ago












  • 8




    $begingroup$
    I would like to note, since the question is tagged with "faa-knowledge-test", the answer is "yes" because the FAA is like the trivia guy at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday night... whether they're right or they're wrong, they're always right; that's just how the game is played.
    $endgroup$
    – Ryan Mortensen
    2 days ago







8




8




$begingroup$
I would like to note, since the question is tagged with "faa-knowledge-test", the answer is "yes" because the FAA is like the trivia guy at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday night... whether they're right or they're wrong, they're always right; that's just how the game is played.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Mortensen
2 days ago




$begingroup$
I would like to note, since the question is tagged with "faa-knowledge-test", the answer is "yes" because the FAA is like the trivia guy at the Mexican restaurant on Saturday night... whether they're right or they're wrong, they're always right; that's just how the game is played.
$endgroup$
– Ryan Mortensen
2 days ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















10












$begingroup$

No, one wing has at least partially attached flow. How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?



During a spin the aircraft experiences a linear variation in angle of attack over span. The pitch attitude is between 40° and 60° nose-down, and the local angle of attack is 90° minus the pitch angle, which is between 50° and 30°, at the center wing. Move outward from there and the angle of attack increases on the retarding side and decreases on the advancing side.



As a consequence, the outer advancing wing will experience a moderate angle of attack which can even become negative at the tip. Therefore, a sizeable portion of that wing side has attached flow with high lift and low drag. On the other side the angle of attack grows to 90° and beyond, so the wing is fully separated and the aerodynamic force is normal to the wing surface. See below for a diagram of the flow direction: The dark blue vector is from the falling motion and the red vector is the product of the yawing moment $omega_z$ times the wing station y. Together they combine to the green vector which produces a resulting aerodynamic force R:



flow over a spinning wing



On the left is the retarding wing and on the right the advancing wing. Note that the aerodynamic force is in line with the flow vector on the retarding wing with its fully separated flow while the aerodynamic force is normal to the flow vector due to the attached flow on the advancing wing. The difference in the local forces produces a yawing and rolling moment which balances with the damping forces. If there would not be such an asymmetry, the motion would die down quickly.



Even in a flat spin, where the pitch attitude is around 0° (resulting in 90° angle of attack at the center wing), the advancing side of a moderate to high aspect ratio wing produces some nose thrust from partially attached flow. How else would the aircraft keep spinnig? Low aspect ratio designs produce a propelling nose vortex on the forward fuselage which keeps the motion alive.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
    $endgroup$
    – DLH
    Apr 4 at 21:59






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
    $endgroup$
    – DLH
    Apr 4 at 22:38






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
    $endgroup$
    – Fattie
    Apr 4 at 22:51






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    2 days ago







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
    $endgroup$
    – alephzero
    2 days ago


















11












$begingroup$

Yes, both are stalled.



I guess a nit-pick is on "what is stalled"? I adopt that you are at or beyond the point that an increase in AOA results in an increase in lift (critical AOA). That's the top of the blue curve in the plot below.



Also, a stalled wing does not mean every point on the wing has unattached flow. It means the wing is operating at an AOA where an increase in AOA results in a decrease in lift.



At low angles of attack (AOA) planes are naturally stable in roll. The downgoing wing sees a higher AOA which results in more lift, and a restoring force. The upgoing wings sees a lower AOA, and less lift, so it is stabilizing too.



At a high AOA, though, you are operating on the backside of the wing lift diagram. In the picture below, this would be at and beyond 20 degrees AOA.



enter image description here



Now, the upgoing wing sees more lift, which leads to positively reinforcing going up. Same but opposite on the downgoing. It sees less lift.



Also, the red line shows drag. That downgoing wing (on inside of the spin) sees a great increase in drag, which will lead to a yaw towards that wing, i.e., pro-spin.



So to get in the situation where a roll/yaw movement is positively reinforcing, you need to be in stalled AOA. You might start with just one wing, you'll get to both.



JMHO!



EDIT



Here’s a NASA video of a wing with tufts when it is both on the inside of the spin and outside. Stalled in both (but different airflow).











share|improve this answer











$endgroup$








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
    $endgroup$
    – DLH
    Apr 4 at 21:35






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter Kämpf
    Apr 4 at 21:44











  • $begingroup$
    @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
    $endgroup$
    – DLH
    Apr 4 at 21:53






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
    $endgroup$
    – Ryan Mortensen
    2 days ago







  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
    $endgroup$
    – DJ319
    2 days ago


















4












$begingroup$

A spin is an autorotation that requires an asymmetric thrust force to sustain. This requires the wing span to be anchored at one end by drag, with the other end developing enough thrust to overcome the (rather weak) stabilizing force of the vertical fin and drive that end forward, rotating the plane. The AOA is highest at the inboard end and decreases as you move outboard due to the higher forward velocity. At some point along the span, the outer end is unstalled or only semi-stalled and is making at least some amount of lift/thrust.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    1












    $begingroup$

    This "test" question may apply to a certain type of aircraft and spin procedure (Cessna 172) that has to be stalled straightforward (there for both wings stalled), followed by the "wrong" inputs (rudder into spin, ailerons away) to make it spin. The important concept is that differences in drag and lift between the 2 wings, whether one is stalled or not, keeps the plane in a self sustaining yaw/slip.



    Important is the role of the V stab/rudder in maintaining or ending the spin. Looking at a simple cup shaped anomometer helps visualize the effects of pro-spin rudder into the spin and anti-spin rudder away. Stopping yaw with opposite rudder is key to breaking a spin, and controlling yaw is key to not entering one.



    Also key is how uncoordinated aileron input, trying to roll away from a turn, can cause a spin.
    (The "inside" slower wing is now compounded with the down aileron creating a higher AOA).
    Although aileron roll effect can reverse in the stall AOA regime, rudder will not. But this also means that applying opposite ailerons in a spin can be explored! (Qualified instructor recommended).



    But for the 172, just letting go of the yoke, power to idle, and opposite rudder would break the spin if CG was correct.



    Every plane and situation is different (as seen by these answers), it is advisable to find out how your plane handles and how to control it, no matter what the "correct" test answer is.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      );
      );
      , "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "528"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f62020%2fin-a-spin-are-both-wings-stalled%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      10












      $begingroup$

      No, one wing has at least partially attached flow. How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?



      During a spin the aircraft experiences a linear variation in angle of attack over span. The pitch attitude is between 40° and 60° nose-down, and the local angle of attack is 90° minus the pitch angle, which is between 50° and 30°, at the center wing. Move outward from there and the angle of attack increases on the retarding side and decreases on the advancing side.



      As a consequence, the outer advancing wing will experience a moderate angle of attack which can even become negative at the tip. Therefore, a sizeable portion of that wing side has attached flow with high lift and low drag. On the other side the angle of attack grows to 90° and beyond, so the wing is fully separated and the aerodynamic force is normal to the wing surface. See below for a diagram of the flow direction: The dark blue vector is from the falling motion and the red vector is the product of the yawing moment $omega_z$ times the wing station y. Together they combine to the green vector which produces a resulting aerodynamic force R:



      flow over a spinning wing



      On the left is the retarding wing and on the right the advancing wing. Note that the aerodynamic force is in line with the flow vector on the retarding wing with its fully separated flow while the aerodynamic force is normal to the flow vector due to the attached flow on the advancing wing. The difference in the local forces produces a yawing and rolling moment which balances with the damping forces. If there would not be such an asymmetry, the motion would die down quickly.



      Even in a flat spin, where the pitch attitude is around 0° (resulting in 90° angle of attack at the center wing), the advancing side of a moderate to high aspect ratio wing produces some nose thrust from partially attached flow. How else would the aircraft keep spinnig? Low aspect ratio designs produce a propelling nose vortex on the forward fuselage which keeps the motion alive.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:59






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 22:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
        $endgroup$
        – Fattie
        Apr 4 at 22:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        2 days ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
        $endgroup$
        – alephzero
        2 days ago















      10












      $begingroup$

      No, one wing has at least partially attached flow. How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?



      During a spin the aircraft experiences a linear variation in angle of attack over span. The pitch attitude is between 40° and 60° nose-down, and the local angle of attack is 90° minus the pitch angle, which is between 50° and 30°, at the center wing. Move outward from there and the angle of attack increases on the retarding side and decreases on the advancing side.



      As a consequence, the outer advancing wing will experience a moderate angle of attack which can even become negative at the tip. Therefore, a sizeable portion of that wing side has attached flow with high lift and low drag. On the other side the angle of attack grows to 90° and beyond, so the wing is fully separated and the aerodynamic force is normal to the wing surface. See below for a diagram of the flow direction: The dark blue vector is from the falling motion and the red vector is the product of the yawing moment $omega_z$ times the wing station y. Together they combine to the green vector which produces a resulting aerodynamic force R:



      flow over a spinning wing



      On the left is the retarding wing and on the right the advancing wing. Note that the aerodynamic force is in line with the flow vector on the retarding wing with its fully separated flow while the aerodynamic force is normal to the flow vector due to the attached flow on the advancing wing. The difference in the local forces produces a yawing and rolling moment which balances with the damping forces. If there would not be such an asymmetry, the motion would die down quickly.



      Even in a flat spin, where the pitch attitude is around 0° (resulting in 90° angle of attack at the center wing), the advancing side of a moderate to high aspect ratio wing produces some nose thrust from partially attached flow. How else would the aircraft keep spinnig? Low aspect ratio designs produce a propelling nose vortex on the forward fuselage which keeps the motion alive.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:59






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 22:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
        $endgroup$
        – Fattie
        Apr 4 at 22:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        2 days ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
        $endgroup$
        – alephzero
        2 days ago













      10












      10








      10





      $begingroup$

      No, one wing has at least partially attached flow. How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?



      During a spin the aircraft experiences a linear variation in angle of attack over span. The pitch attitude is between 40° and 60° nose-down, and the local angle of attack is 90° minus the pitch angle, which is between 50° and 30°, at the center wing. Move outward from there and the angle of attack increases on the retarding side and decreases on the advancing side.



      As a consequence, the outer advancing wing will experience a moderate angle of attack which can even become negative at the tip. Therefore, a sizeable portion of that wing side has attached flow with high lift and low drag. On the other side the angle of attack grows to 90° and beyond, so the wing is fully separated and the aerodynamic force is normal to the wing surface. See below for a diagram of the flow direction: The dark blue vector is from the falling motion and the red vector is the product of the yawing moment $omega_z$ times the wing station y. Together they combine to the green vector which produces a resulting aerodynamic force R:



      flow over a spinning wing



      On the left is the retarding wing and on the right the advancing wing. Note that the aerodynamic force is in line with the flow vector on the retarding wing with its fully separated flow while the aerodynamic force is normal to the flow vector due to the attached flow on the advancing wing. The difference in the local forces produces a yawing and rolling moment which balances with the damping forces. If there would not be such an asymmetry, the motion would die down quickly.



      Even in a flat spin, where the pitch attitude is around 0° (resulting in 90° angle of attack at the center wing), the advancing side of a moderate to high aspect ratio wing produces some nose thrust from partially attached flow. How else would the aircraft keep spinnig? Low aspect ratio designs produce a propelling nose vortex on the forward fuselage which keeps the motion alive.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      No, one wing has at least partially attached flow. How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?



      During a spin the aircraft experiences a linear variation in angle of attack over span. The pitch attitude is between 40° and 60° nose-down, and the local angle of attack is 90° minus the pitch angle, which is between 50° and 30°, at the center wing. Move outward from there and the angle of attack increases on the retarding side and decreases on the advancing side.



      As a consequence, the outer advancing wing will experience a moderate angle of attack which can even become negative at the tip. Therefore, a sizeable portion of that wing side has attached flow with high lift and low drag. On the other side the angle of attack grows to 90° and beyond, so the wing is fully separated and the aerodynamic force is normal to the wing surface. See below for a diagram of the flow direction: The dark blue vector is from the falling motion and the red vector is the product of the yawing moment $omega_z$ times the wing station y. Together they combine to the green vector which produces a resulting aerodynamic force R:



      flow over a spinning wing



      On the left is the retarding wing and on the right the advancing wing. Note that the aerodynamic force is in line with the flow vector on the retarding wing with its fully separated flow while the aerodynamic force is normal to the flow vector due to the attached flow on the advancing wing. The difference in the local forces produces a yawing and rolling moment which balances with the damping forces. If there would not be such an asymmetry, the motion would die down quickly.



      Even in a flat spin, where the pitch attitude is around 0° (resulting in 90° angle of attack at the center wing), the advancing side of a moderate to high aspect ratio wing produces some nose thrust from partially attached flow. How else would the aircraft keep spinnig? Low aspect ratio designs produce a propelling nose vortex on the forward fuselage which keeps the motion alive.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Apr 4 at 21:50

























      answered Apr 4 at 21:39









      Peter KämpfPeter Kämpf

      161k12411655




      161k12411655











      • $begingroup$
        So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:59






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 22:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
        $endgroup$
        – Fattie
        Apr 4 at 22:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        2 days ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
        $endgroup$
        – alephzero
        2 days ago
















      • $begingroup$
        So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:59






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 22:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
        $endgroup$
        – Fattie
        Apr 4 at 22:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        2 days ago







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
        $endgroup$
        – alephzero
        2 days ago















      $begingroup$
      So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 21:59




      $begingroup$
      So this is kind of like a helicopter rotor retreating blade stall where the retreating side can stall due to higher angle of attack?
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 21:59




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 22:38




      $begingroup$
      @MikeY: I believe that you are referencing washout which means the root of the wing will stall before the tip and this is used to keep some roll stability in the stall. However I believe the situation Peter presents here is that the tip stalls before the root.
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 22:38




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
      $endgroup$
      – Fattie
      Apr 4 at 22:51




      $begingroup$
      "How else would there be a rolling and yawing moment which keeps the spin movement alive?" Rhetorical questions are unbecoming, Peter! :)
      $endgroup$
      – Fattie
      Apr 4 at 22:51




      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
      $endgroup$
      – Peter Kämpf
      2 days ago





      $begingroup$
      @RyanMortensen: There is a lot of nonsense making the rounds in pilot circles. I have not encountered the "both wings are stalled" myth myself, but how false it is depends on what stalled means. Note that I (indirectly) say that the inner part of the advancing wing is stalled. But what counts is the outer part with the long lateral lever arm, and that is not stalled.
      $endgroup$
      – Peter Kämpf
      2 days ago





      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
      $endgroup$
      – alephzero
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @PeterKämpf "How else would the aircraft keep spinning?" That depends what the pilot is doing with the rudder. A flat spin doesn't mean zero forward airspeed! But you are right, most of this is a debate about terminology, not physics. It may be true (for some definition of "stall" ) that both wings are stalled in a "straight and level" full stall, but if that stall evolves into a spin one wing then becomes unstalled. But from the pilot's point of view, so what? Carrying out the standard recovery procedures don't depend on knowing the answer to that sort of trivia question.
      $endgroup$
      – alephzero
      2 days ago











      11












      $begingroup$

      Yes, both are stalled.



      I guess a nit-pick is on "what is stalled"? I adopt that you are at or beyond the point that an increase in AOA results in an increase in lift (critical AOA). That's the top of the blue curve in the plot below.



      Also, a stalled wing does not mean every point on the wing has unattached flow. It means the wing is operating at an AOA where an increase in AOA results in a decrease in lift.



      At low angles of attack (AOA) planes are naturally stable in roll. The downgoing wing sees a higher AOA which results in more lift, and a restoring force. The upgoing wings sees a lower AOA, and less lift, so it is stabilizing too.



      At a high AOA, though, you are operating on the backside of the wing lift diagram. In the picture below, this would be at and beyond 20 degrees AOA.



      enter image description here



      Now, the upgoing wing sees more lift, which leads to positively reinforcing going up. Same but opposite on the downgoing. It sees less lift.



      Also, the red line shows drag. That downgoing wing (on inside of the spin) sees a great increase in drag, which will lead to a yaw towards that wing, i.e., pro-spin.



      So to get in the situation where a roll/yaw movement is positively reinforcing, you need to be in stalled AOA. You might start with just one wing, you'll get to both.



      JMHO!



      EDIT



      Here’s a NASA video of a wing with tufts when it is both on the inside of the spin and outside. Stalled in both (but different airflow).











      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 3




        $begingroup$
        I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:35






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        Apr 4 at 21:44











      • $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:53






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
        $endgroup$
        – Ryan Mortensen
        2 days ago







      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
        $endgroup$
        – DJ319
        2 days ago















      11












      $begingroup$

      Yes, both are stalled.



      I guess a nit-pick is on "what is stalled"? I adopt that you are at or beyond the point that an increase in AOA results in an increase in lift (critical AOA). That's the top of the blue curve in the plot below.



      Also, a stalled wing does not mean every point on the wing has unattached flow. It means the wing is operating at an AOA where an increase in AOA results in a decrease in lift.



      At low angles of attack (AOA) planes are naturally stable in roll. The downgoing wing sees a higher AOA which results in more lift, and a restoring force. The upgoing wings sees a lower AOA, and less lift, so it is stabilizing too.



      At a high AOA, though, you are operating on the backside of the wing lift diagram. In the picture below, this would be at and beyond 20 degrees AOA.



      enter image description here



      Now, the upgoing wing sees more lift, which leads to positively reinforcing going up. Same but opposite on the downgoing. It sees less lift.



      Also, the red line shows drag. That downgoing wing (on inside of the spin) sees a great increase in drag, which will lead to a yaw towards that wing, i.e., pro-spin.



      So to get in the situation where a roll/yaw movement is positively reinforcing, you need to be in stalled AOA. You might start with just one wing, you'll get to both.



      JMHO!



      EDIT



      Here’s a NASA video of a wing with tufts when it is both on the inside of the spin and outside. Stalled in both (but different airflow).











      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$








      • 3




        $begingroup$
        I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:35






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        Apr 4 at 21:44











      • $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:53






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
        $endgroup$
        – Ryan Mortensen
        2 days ago







      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
        $endgroup$
        – DJ319
        2 days ago













      11












      11








      11





      $begingroup$

      Yes, both are stalled.



      I guess a nit-pick is on "what is stalled"? I adopt that you are at or beyond the point that an increase in AOA results in an increase in lift (critical AOA). That's the top of the blue curve in the plot below.



      Also, a stalled wing does not mean every point on the wing has unattached flow. It means the wing is operating at an AOA where an increase in AOA results in a decrease in lift.



      At low angles of attack (AOA) planes are naturally stable in roll. The downgoing wing sees a higher AOA which results in more lift, and a restoring force. The upgoing wings sees a lower AOA, and less lift, so it is stabilizing too.



      At a high AOA, though, you are operating on the backside of the wing lift diagram. In the picture below, this would be at and beyond 20 degrees AOA.



      enter image description here



      Now, the upgoing wing sees more lift, which leads to positively reinforcing going up. Same but opposite on the downgoing. It sees less lift.



      Also, the red line shows drag. That downgoing wing (on inside of the spin) sees a great increase in drag, which will lead to a yaw towards that wing, i.e., pro-spin.



      So to get in the situation where a roll/yaw movement is positively reinforcing, you need to be in stalled AOA. You might start with just one wing, you'll get to both.



      JMHO!



      EDIT



      Here’s a NASA video of a wing with tufts when it is both on the inside of the spin and outside. Stalled in both (but different airflow).











      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      Yes, both are stalled.



      I guess a nit-pick is on "what is stalled"? I adopt that you are at or beyond the point that an increase in AOA results in an increase in lift (critical AOA). That's the top of the blue curve in the plot below.



      Also, a stalled wing does not mean every point on the wing has unattached flow. It means the wing is operating at an AOA where an increase in AOA results in a decrease in lift.



      At low angles of attack (AOA) planes are naturally stable in roll. The downgoing wing sees a higher AOA which results in more lift, and a restoring force. The upgoing wings sees a lower AOA, and less lift, so it is stabilizing too.



      At a high AOA, though, you are operating on the backside of the wing lift diagram. In the picture below, this would be at and beyond 20 degrees AOA.



      enter image description here



      Now, the upgoing wing sees more lift, which leads to positively reinforcing going up. Same but opposite on the downgoing. It sees less lift.



      Also, the red line shows drag. That downgoing wing (on inside of the spin) sees a great increase in drag, which will lead to a yaw towards that wing, i.e., pro-spin.



      So to get in the situation where a roll/yaw movement is positively reinforcing, you need to be in stalled AOA. You might start with just one wing, you'll get to both.



      JMHO!



      EDIT



      Here’s a NASA video of a wing with tufts when it is both on the inside of the spin and outside. Stalled in both (but different airflow).




















      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 2 days ago

























      answered Apr 4 at 20:12









      MikeYMikeY

      68417




      68417







      • 3




        $begingroup$
        I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:35






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        Apr 4 at 21:44











      • $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:53






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
        $endgroup$
        – Ryan Mortensen
        2 days ago







      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
        $endgroup$
        – DJ319
        2 days ago












      • 3




        $begingroup$
        I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:35






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
        $endgroup$
        – Peter Kämpf
        Apr 4 at 21:44











      • $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
        $endgroup$
        – DLH
        Apr 4 at 21:53






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
        $endgroup$
        – Ryan Mortensen
        2 days ago







      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
        $endgroup$
        – DJ319
        2 days ago







      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 21:35




      $begingroup$
      I think this is a good answer. I've been reading up on spins. While I think that maybe only one wing will stall during the departure phase of the spin, by the time the spin is in the developed stage both wings will be stalled. I think the test question could have been better worded though.
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 21:35




      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
      $endgroup$
      – Peter Kämpf
      Apr 4 at 21:44





      $begingroup$
      @DLH I think this is a poor answer because it is wrong.
      $endgroup$
      – Peter Kämpf
      Apr 4 at 21:44













      $begingroup$
      @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 21:53




      $begingroup$
      @PeterKämpf: Oh man I wish you had answered sooner, I was persuaded.
      $endgroup$
      – DLH
      Apr 4 at 21:53




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
      $endgroup$
      – Ryan Mortensen
      2 days ago





      $begingroup$
      In your answer, you ask, "What is stalled?" Good question. So have you defined what you are considering stalled to mean for the purpose of the answer? Some people will think of stalled to mean something like, "not generating enough lift to oppose the force of weight". The technical answer is exceeding the critical angle of attack.
      $endgroup$
      – Ryan Mortensen
      2 days ago





      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
      $endgroup$
      – DJ319
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @PeterKämpf Why is he wrong the flight test shown in the video clearly shows both wings stalled during the spin.
      $endgroup$
      – DJ319
      2 days ago











      4












      $begingroup$

      A spin is an autorotation that requires an asymmetric thrust force to sustain. This requires the wing span to be anchored at one end by drag, with the other end developing enough thrust to overcome the (rather weak) stabilizing force of the vertical fin and drive that end forward, rotating the plane. The AOA is highest at the inboard end and decreases as you move outboard due to the higher forward velocity. At some point along the span, the outer end is unstalled or only semi-stalled and is making at least some amount of lift/thrust.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        4












        $begingroup$

        A spin is an autorotation that requires an asymmetric thrust force to sustain. This requires the wing span to be anchored at one end by drag, with the other end developing enough thrust to overcome the (rather weak) stabilizing force of the vertical fin and drive that end forward, rotating the plane. The AOA is highest at the inboard end and decreases as you move outboard due to the higher forward velocity. At some point along the span, the outer end is unstalled or only semi-stalled and is making at least some amount of lift/thrust.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          4












          4








          4





          $begingroup$

          A spin is an autorotation that requires an asymmetric thrust force to sustain. This requires the wing span to be anchored at one end by drag, with the other end developing enough thrust to overcome the (rather weak) stabilizing force of the vertical fin and drive that end forward, rotating the plane. The AOA is highest at the inboard end and decreases as you move outboard due to the higher forward velocity. At some point along the span, the outer end is unstalled or only semi-stalled and is making at least some amount of lift/thrust.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          A spin is an autorotation that requires an asymmetric thrust force to sustain. This requires the wing span to be anchored at one end by drag, with the other end developing enough thrust to overcome the (rather weak) stabilizing force of the vertical fin and drive that end forward, rotating the plane. The AOA is highest at the inboard end and decreases as you move outboard due to the higher forward velocity. At some point along the span, the outer end is unstalled or only semi-stalled and is making at least some amount of lift/thrust.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Apr 4 at 21:53









          John KJohn K

          24.6k13674




          24.6k13674





















              1












              $begingroup$

              This "test" question may apply to a certain type of aircraft and spin procedure (Cessna 172) that has to be stalled straightforward (there for both wings stalled), followed by the "wrong" inputs (rudder into spin, ailerons away) to make it spin. The important concept is that differences in drag and lift between the 2 wings, whether one is stalled or not, keeps the plane in a self sustaining yaw/slip.



              Important is the role of the V stab/rudder in maintaining or ending the spin. Looking at a simple cup shaped anomometer helps visualize the effects of pro-spin rudder into the spin and anti-spin rudder away. Stopping yaw with opposite rudder is key to breaking a spin, and controlling yaw is key to not entering one.



              Also key is how uncoordinated aileron input, trying to roll away from a turn, can cause a spin.
              (The "inside" slower wing is now compounded with the down aileron creating a higher AOA).
              Although aileron roll effect can reverse in the stall AOA regime, rudder will not. But this also means that applying opposite ailerons in a spin can be explored! (Qualified instructor recommended).



              But for the 172, just letting go of the yoke, power to idle, and opposite rudder would break the spin if CG was correct.



              Every plane and situation is different (as seen by these answers), it is advisable to find out how your plane handles and how to control it, no matter what the "correct" test answer is.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$

















                1












                $begingroup$

                This "test" question may apply to a certain type of aircraft and spin procedure (Cessna 172) that has to be stalled straightforward (there for both wings stalled), followed by the "wrong" inputs (rudder into spin, ailerons away) to make it spin. The important concept is that differences in drag and lift between the 2 wings, whether one is stalled or not, keeps the plane in a self sustaining yaw/slip.



                Important is the role of the V stab/rudder in maintaining or ending the spin. Looking at a simple cup shaped anomometer helps visualize the effects of pro-spin rudder into the spin and anti-spin rudder away. Stopping yaw with opposite rudder is key to breaking a spin, and controlling yaw is key to not entering one.



                Also key is how uncoordinated aileron input, trying to roll away from a turn, can cause a spin.
                (The "inside" slower wing is now compounded with the down aileron creating a higher AOA).
                Although aileron roll effect can reverse in the stall AOA regime, rudder will not. But this also means that applying opposite ailerons in a spin can be explored! (Qualified instructor recommended).



                But for the 172, just letting go of the yoke, power to idle, and opposite rudder would break the spin if CG was correct.



                Every plane and situation is different (as seen by these answers), it is advisable to find out how your plane handles and how to control it, no matter what the "correct" test answer is.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  This "test" question may apply to a certain type of aircraft and spin procedure (Cessna 172) that has to be stalled straightforward (there for both wings stalled), followed by the "wrong" inputs (rudder into spin, ailerons away) to make it spin. The important concept is that differences in drag and lift between the 2 wings, whether one is stalled or not, keeps the plane in a self sustaining yaw/slip.



                  Important is the role of the V stab/rudder in maintaining or ending the spin. Looking at a simple cup shaped anomometer helps visualize the effects of pro-spin rudder into the spin and anti-spin rudder away. Stopping yaw with opposite rudder is key to breaking a spin, and controlling yaw is key to not entering one.



                  Also key is how uncoordinated aileron input, trying to roll away from a turn, can cause a spin.
                  (The "inside" slower wing is now compounded with the down aileron creating a higher AOA).
                  Although aileron roll effect can reverse in the stall AOA regime, rudder will not. But this also means that applying opposite ailerons in a spin can be explored! (Qualified instructor recommended).



                  But for the 172, just letting go of the yoke, power to idle, and opposite rudder would break the spin if CG was correct.



                  Every plane and situation is different (as seen by these answers), it is advisable to find out how your plane handles and how to control it, no matter what the "correct" test answer is.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  This "test" question may apply to a certain type of aircraft and spin procedure (Cessna 172) that has to be stalled straightforward (there for both wings stalled), followed by the "wrong" inputs (rudder into spin, ailerons away) to make it spin. The important concept is that differences in drag and lift between the 2 wings, whether one is stalled or not, keeps the plane in a self sustaining yaw/slip.



                  Important is the role of the V stab/rudder in maintaining or ending the spin. Looking at a simple cup shaped anomometer helps visualize the effects of pro-spin rudder into the spin and anti-spin rudder away. Stopping yaw with opposite rudder is key to breaking a spin, and controlling yaw is key to not entering one.



                  Also key is how uncoordinated aileron input, trying to roll away from a turn, can cause a spin.
                  (The "inside" slower wing is now compounded with the down aileron creating a higher AOA).
                  Although aileron roll effect can reverse in the stall AOA regime, rudder will not. But this also means that applying opposite ailerons in a spin can be explored! (Qualified instructor recommended).



                  But for the 172, just letting go of the yoke, power to idle, and opposite rudder would break the spin if CG was correct.



                  Every plane and situation is different (as seen by these answers), it is advisable to find out how your plane handles and how to control it, no matter what the "correct" test answer is.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 2 days ago

























                  answered Apr 4 at 23:35









                  Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni

                  2,6851316




                  2,6851316



























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Aviation Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f62020%2fin-a-spin-are-both-wings-stalled%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Àrd-bhaile Cathair chruinne/Baile mòr cruinne | Artagailean ceangailte | Clàr-taice na seòladaireachd

                      대한민국 목차 국명 지리 역사 정치 국방 경제 사회 문화 국제 순위 관련 항목 각주 외부 링크 둘러보기 메뉴북위 37° 34′ 08″ 동경 126° 58′ 36″ / 북위 37.568889° 동경 126.976667°  / 37.568889; 126.976667ehThe Korean Repository문단을 편집문단을 편집추가해Clarkson PLC 사Report for Selected Countries and Subjects-Korea“Human Development Index and its components: P.198”“http://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C%EB%AF%BC%EA%B5%AD%EA%B5%AD%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95”"한국은 국제법상 한반도 유일 합법정부 아니다" - 오마이뉴스 모바일Report for Selected Countries and Subjects: South Korea격동의 역사와 함께한 조선일보 90년 : 조선일보 인수해 혁신시킨 신석우, 임시정부 때는 '대한민국' 국호(國號) 정해《우리가 몰랐던 우리 역사: 나라 이름의 비밀을 찾아가는 역사 여행》“남북 공식호칭 ‘남한’‘북한’으로 쓴다”“Corea 대 Korea, 누가 이긴 거야?”국내기후자료 - 한국[김대중 前 대통령 서거] 과감한 구조개혁 'DJ노믹스'로 최단기간 환란극복 :: 네이버 뉴스“이라크 "韓-쿠르드 유전개발 MOU 승인 안해"(종합)”“해외 우리국민 추방사례 43%가 일본”차기전차 K2'흑표'의 세계 최고 전력 분석, 쿠키뉴스 엄기영, 2007-03-02두산인프라, 헬기잡는 장갑차 'K21'...내년부터 공급, 고뉴스 이대준, 2008-10-30과거 내용 찾기mk 뉴스 - 구매력 기준으로 보면 한국 1인당 소득 3만弗과거 내용 찾기"The N-11: More Than an Acronym"Archived조선일보 최우석, 2008-11-01Global 500 2008: Countries - South Korea“몇년째 '시한폭탄'... 가계부채, 올해는 터질까”가구당 부채 5000만원 처음 넘어서“‘빚’으로 내몰리는 사회.. 위기의 가계대출”“[경제365] 공공부문 부채 급증…800조 육박”“"소득 양극화 다소 완화...불평등은 여전"”“공정사회·공생발전 한참 멀었네”iSuppli,08年2QのDRAMシェア・ランキングを発表(08/8/11)South Korea dominates shipbuilding industry | Stock Market News & Stocks to Watch from StraightStocks한국 자동차 생산, 3년 연속 세계 5위자동차수출 '현대-삼성 웃고 기아-대우-쌍용은 울고' 과거 내용 찾기동반성장위 창립 1주년 맞아Archived"중기적합 3개업종 합의 무시한 채 선정"李대통령, 사업 무분별 확장 소상공인 생계 위협 질타삼성-LG, 서민업종인 빵·분식사업 잇따라 철수상생은 뒷전…SSM ‘몸집 불리기’ 혈안Archived“경부고속도에 '아시안하이웨이' 표지판”'철의 실크로드' 앞서 '말(言)의 실크로드'부터, 프레시안 정창현, 2008-10-01“'서울 지하철은 안전한가?'”“서울시 “올해 안에 모든 지하철역 스크린도어 설치””“부산지하철 1,2호선 승강장 안전펜스 설치 완료”“전교조, 정부 노조 통계서 처음 빠져”“[Weekly BIZ] 도요타 '제로 이사회'가 리콜 사태 불러들였다”“S Korea slams high tuition costs”““정치가 여론 양극화 부채질… 합리주의 절실””“〈"`촛불집회'는 민주주의의 질적 변화 상징"〉”““촛불집회가 민주주의 왜곡 초래””“국민 65%, "한국 노사관계 대립적"”“한국 국가경쟁력 27위‥노사관계 '꼴찌'”“제대로 형성되지 않은 대한민국 이념지형”“[신년기획-갈등의 시대] 갈등지수 OECD 4위…사회적 손실 GDP 27% 무려 300조”“2012 총선-대선의 키워드는 '국민과 소통'”“한국 삶의 질 27위, 2000년과 2008년 연속 하위권 머물러”“[해피 코리아] 행복점수 68점…해외 평가선 '낙제점'”“한국 어린이·청소년 행복지수 3년 연속 OECD ‘꼴찌’”“한국 이혼율 OECD중 8위”“[통계청] 한국 이혼율 OECD 4위”“오피니언 [이렇게 생각한다] `부부의 날` 에 돌아본 이혼율 1위 한국”“Suicide Rates by Country, Global Health Observatory Data Repository.”“1. 또 다른 차별”“오피니언 [편집자에게] '왕따'와 '패거리 정치' 심리는 닮은꼴”“[미래한국리포트] 무한경쟁에 빠진 대한민국”“대학생 98% "외모가 경쟁력이라는 말 동의"”“특급호텔 웨딩·200만원대 유모차… "남보다 더…" 호화病, 고질병 됐다”“[스트레스 공화국] ① 경쟁사회, 스트레스 쌓인다”““매일 30여명 자살 한국, 의사보다 무속인에…””“"자살 부르는 '우울증', 환자 중 85% 치료 안 받아"”“정신병원을 가다”“대한민국도 ‘묻지마 범죄’,안전지대 아니다”“유엔 "학생 '성적 지향'에 따른 차별 금지하라"”“유엔아동권리위원회 보고서 및 번역본 원문”“고졸 성공스토리 담은 '제빵왕 김탁구' 드라마 나온다”“‘빛 좋은 개살구’ 고졸 취업…실습 대신 착취”원본 문서“정신건강, 사회적 편견부터 고쳐드립니다”‘소통’과 ‘행복’에 목 마른 사회가 잠들어 있던 ‘심리학’ 깨웠다“[포토] 사유리-곽금주 교수의 유쾌한 심리상담”“"올해 한국인 평균 영화관람횟수 세계 1위"(종합)”“[게임연중기획] 게임은 문화다-여가활동 1순위 게임”“영화속 ‘영어 지상주의’ …“왠지 씁쓸한데””“2월 `신문 부수 인증기관` 지정..방송법 후속작업”“무료신문 성장동력 ‘차별성’과 ‘갈등해소’”대한민국 국회 법률지식정보시스템"Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project: South Korea"“amp;vwcd=MT_ZTITLE&path=인구·가구%20>%20인구총조사%20>%20인구부문%20>%20 총조사인구(2005)%20>%20전수부문&oper_YN=Y&item=&keyword=종교별%20인구& amp;lang_mode=kor&list_id= 2005년 통계청 인구 총조사”원본 문서“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2009)”“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2014)”Archived“한국, `부분적 언론자유국' 강등〈프리덤하우스〉”“국경없는기자회 "한국, 인터넷감시 대상국"”“한국, 조선산업 1위 유지(S. Korea Stays Top Shipbuilding Nation) RZD-Partner Portal”원본 문서“한국, 4년 만에 ‘선박건조 1위’”“옛 마산시,인터넷속도 세계 1위”“"한국 초고속 인터넷망 세계1위"”“인터넷·휴대폰 요금, 외국보다 훨씬 비싸”“한국 관세행정 6년 연속 세계 '1위'”“한국 교통사고 사망자 수 OECD 회원국 중 2위”“결핵 후진국' 한국, 환자가 급증한 이유는”“수술은 신중해야… 자칫하면 생명 위협”대한민국분류대한민국의 지도대한민국 정부대표 다국어포털대한민국 전자정부대한민국 국회한국방송공사about korea and information korea브리태니커 백과사전(한국편)론리플래닛의 정보(한국편)CIA의 세계 정보(한국편)마리암 부디아 (Mariam Budia),『한국: 하늘이 내린 한 폭의 그림』, 서울: 트랜스라틴 19호 (2012년 3월)대한민국ehehehehehehehehehehehehehehWorldCat132441370n791268020000 0001 2308 81034078029-6026373548cb11863345f(데이터)00573706ge128495

                      Cannot Extend partition with GParted The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) 2019 Community Moderator Election ResultsCan't increase partition size with GParted?GParted doesn't recognize the unallocated space after my current partitionWhat is the best way to add unallocated space located before to Ubuntu 12.04 partition with GParted live?I can't figure out how to extend my Arch home partition into free spaceGparted Linux Mint 18.1 issueTrying to extend but swap partition is showing as Unknown in Gparted, shows proper from fdiskRearrange partitions in gparted to extend a partitionUnable to extend partition even though unallocated space is next to it using GPartedAllocate free space to root partitiongparted: how to merge unallocated space with a partition