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Crossing the line between justified force and brutality



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowHow can I strike a balance between setting and plot?What is the difference between a complication/twist and a situation?At what point disappointment and frustration within the story makes the reader abandon it?What is difference between clown and trickster?How can I gradually grow the romance between the two main characters?What is the difference between character-driven stories and plot-driven stories?Is it okay to switch protagonists between books, if the main protagonist is a hidden “actor”?Is there a balance between a page-turning read and an exhausting 'too much' reading experience?How do you prevent whiplash when transitioning between comedy and tragedy?how can I showcase the internal struggles between a man and his demons?










7















A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 3





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    yesterday











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    yesterday












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday















7















A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.










share|improve this question



















  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 3





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    yesterday











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    yesterday












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday













7












7








7


2






A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.










share|improve this question
















A beta reader of sorts (cousin) mentioned he thought my MC2 rather brutal in her capture of MC1 - though justified.



I have her dupe him into surrendering (believing himself outnumbered and outgunned). Once he does surrender, she does the following:



  • searches him

  • disarms him

  • handcuffs him

  • binds his elbows to prevent escape

  • rigs a chokehold out of a dog leash

  • threatens him with a hunting knife

  • holds him at gun point

  • threatens to geld him (psychological tactic only)

She is successful in convincing him that any unsanctioned movement is a bad idea. She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.



Has she crossed the line between using justified force to bring in a dangerous prisoner and brutality?



It occurs in Bolivia shortly after an assassination.



To clarify somewhat, she does not go directly to the choke-hold or threat of castration. MC1 asks her something that makes her choose to go further as he is not in the mindset she wants yet.







characters plot combat






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 5 hours ago







Rasdashan

















asked 2 days ago









RasdashanRasdashan

8,8391156




8,8391156







  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 3





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    yesterday











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    yesterday












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday












  • 1





    Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 3





    This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

    – Rand al'Thor
    yesterday











  • Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

    – only_pro
    yesterday












  • Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday







1




1





Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

– bruglesco
2 days ago





Is she highly trained at apprehending prisoners? (It sounds like she is, but I'd like to hear it explicitly)

– bruglesco
2 days ago













Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

– Rasdashan
2 days ago





Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.

– Rasdashan
2 days ago




3




3





This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

– Rand al'Thor
yesterday





This could be part of your MC2's character development. Perhaps she asks herself the same question you've asked here: was I justified in using such force or not? (I once read a book [book 9 of Darren Shan's excellent Demonata series] in which MC1 rips MC2's eyes out in order to keep him on Earth instead of abandoning their mission for another which he sees as greater. Brutal as hell, but in the context of the story, it worked.)

– Rand al'Thor
yesterday













Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

– only_pro
yesterday






Can you "geld" a person? Don't we call that castration? It's like saying a woman got spayed...

– only_pro
yesterday














Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

– Rasdashan
yesterday





Indeed - though she never uses the term. She asks him if he knows the difference between a bullcalf and a steer. He does

– Rasdashan
yesterday










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















14














The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    2 days ago







  • 3





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    yesterday











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday


















13














Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer








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Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 7





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    2 days ago



















5














Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago


















4














It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    yesterday












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    yesterday






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    yesterday











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday











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4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









14














The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    2 days ago







  • 3





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    yesterday











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday















14














The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    2 days ago







  • 3





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    yesterday











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday













14












14








14







The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.






share|improve this answer















The tone of your writing will make the difference



Written out in a cold hard list like that is certainly sounds brutal. MC2 has MC1 at their mercy and yet continues to threaten and abuse them. If you want to portray the brutality of the scene then you don't have a problem. If you didn't intend for it to sound so harsh then you need to look at how you describe their actions.



Why are they doing it?



When a character is truly brutal and cares little for the life of their target then they will show little emotion or even take pleasure in the acts. Writing their behaviour in this way will increase the brutality of the scene.




She uses these tactics because she is smaller than he is and she would lose in a fight. She cannot allow him, at that moment, to consider resisting.




This makes it sound like the motivation is fear. MC2 is afraid of what MC1 will do when they break out and are doing everything they possibly can to prevent that. You need to show your readers that fear, a voice-crack and shaking hand when pointing the gun something that displays that MC2 isn't as confident as their actions appear.




Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists, her chance to apprehend him is gone.




Desperation is a similar motivator to fear. Show how the character doesn't want to do this but feels like they have no choice. This works particularly well if you show us the reason for their desperation, why is this so important to them?



Characters acting out of fear or desperation is something we can emphasize with and will reduce the feeling of brutality in your scene. Potentially you still make one too many threats but if you make it clear that these are hollow threats and MC2 is unlikely to follow through it won't seem so brutal.




A side note, if MC2 is performing an arrest in any kind of official capacity; law-enforcement, military or covert operation, they have certainly crossed the line. The most concerning is the choke-hold leash and the threat of gelding. Everything else is within the bounds of normal arrest behaviour.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered 2 days ago









linksassinlinksassin

2,009829




2,009829







  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    2 days ago







  • 3





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    yesterday











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday












  • 1





    The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 6





    @Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

    – linksassin
    2 days ago







  • 3





    As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

    – Cort Ammon
    yesterday











  • @CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday







1




1





The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

– Rasdashan
2 days ago





The choke-hold is something she rigs so she can safely transport him. She cannot be both guard and driver, so rigs the choke-hold to maintain control during transit

– Rasdashan
2 days ago




6




6





@Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

– linksassin
2 days ago






@Rasdashan Fair enough, the point is that a police officer still wouldn't do this. Lock them in the boot/trunk of a car maybe if they had no other way to restrain them but choke-hold is pretty brutal. Usually restraining the arms and putting them in the backseat is enough.

– linksassin
2 days ago





3




3





As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

– Cort Ammon
yesterday





As a brainstorm: if your POV permits getting in her head, you could spend a few sentences showing her convincing herself that the gelding threat needs to be made, needs to be successful, and thus she needs to believe it herself. I think that it would be easy to sympathize with someone who realizes she is going to have to convince herself the gelding threat is a legitimate threat in order to make the threat do its job.

– Cort Ammon
yesterday













@CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

– Rasdashan
yesterday





@CortAmmon That is an excellent suggestion. She has a theory that a gap exists in CIA training and this threat helps to render such an officer easier to read, if only briefly. She knows she has to sell it or it is worse than useless. MC1 figures it out, but by then the threat has served its purpose. I will just make that a bit more clear.

– Rasdashan
yesterday











13














Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 7





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    2 days ago
















13














Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 7





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    2 days ago














13












13








13







Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










Assuming the detainer is a police officer, in many jurisdictions this would be considered unnecessary force, i.e. illegal, and would likely result in the detainee having to be released.



Police forces in many nations are bound by principles of criminal justice ethics, and in fact, there are laws that police officers must adhere to in order to avoid misconduct.



Your officer is likely fully aware that misconduct will badly affect the case she is working on, so unless her behaviour is driven by personal factors rather than professional ones (e.g. fear, hatred, revenge, prejudice), this is likely too brutal.







share|improve this answer








New contributor




Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor




Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









answered 2 days ago









Arkenstein XIIArkenstein XII

2314




2314




New contributor




Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Arkenstein XII is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 7





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    2 days ago













  • 7





    +1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

    – Galastel
    2 days ago








7




7





+1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

– Galastel
2 days ago






+1 Laws regarding police misconduct might be different in different places. It is actually a very good idea to check what those laws are in the location where the story takes place. If more brutal actions are permitted there, that could make for an interesting story element.

– Galastel
2 days ago












5














Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago















5














Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago













5












5








5







Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,






share|improve this answer















Justification is a theme for you to explore



You decide what is justified. You decide what gives someone the right to do what she does.



  • Do the ends justify the means?

  • For the greater good.

  • Fear and self-defense. Is it self-defense when she is the pursuer?

  • No cause is just enough. As an officer of the law she has a duty to make apprehensions while maintaining the basic human rights of the prisoner.

I find a couple of things unlikely and requiring explanation, if you pursued this. Your officer is highly trained and presumably used to making captures. Or is she? If she is new, unqualified or unskilled in some way that might justify her fear. Your prisoner could also have a reputation that precedes itself. Even the most skilled and trained officer might be afraid when faced against a notorious fugitive. These are pretty drastic extremes, but sometimes that happens in our writing.



One thing struck me though. Something you said in a comment in response to me asking you if she was highly trained.




Yes, she is. Her concern was she was without backup and if he resists,
her chance to apprehend him is gone.




That doesn't sound like she is afraid for her safety. That sounds like she is afraid she might not win.



If she does this just to be sure she wins, because she always gets her man, and they never escape when she does, then she is a sociopath. This is absolutely brutality.



But then again, maybe she needs to get her man because too much is at stake if he escapes. Too many people will die.



Or they live in a police state.



Regardless of which direction you go with, you should research takedown and restraint techniques for people of smaller stature vs people much bigger than them. Something tells me that even if she was okay with brutality,







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered 2 days ago









bruglescobruglesco

2,346742




2,346742







  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago












  • 1





    prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 5





    @Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago











  • He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

    – Rasdashan
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

    – bruglesco
    2 days ago







1




1





prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

– Rasdashan
2 days ago





prisoner is known to be potentially lethal. She is experienced, but feels these measures are required to ensure success and her own safety.

– Rasdashan
2 days ago




5




5





@Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

– bruglesco
2 days ago





@Rasdashan there is a difference between apprehending a known murderer and pursuing Jason Bourne. Many dangerous criminal are potentially lethal. If that alone was justification you would see cops carrying choke collars with their handcuffs.

– bruglesco
2 days ago













He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

– Rasdashan
2 days ago





He is a bit more Jason Bourne than known killer.

– Rasdashan
2 days ago




2




2





@Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

– bruglesco
2 days ago





@Rasdashan Well if she knows that, then yes, maybe.

– bruglesco
2 days ago











4














It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    yesterday












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    yesterday






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    yesterday











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday















4














It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer


















  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    yesterday












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    yesterday






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    yesterday











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday













4












4








4







It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.






share|improve this answer













It does depend on what her job is.



If she's special forces of some kind, it's very likely this is SOP. MC1 can think himself lucky he's still alive. As with the raid on Bin Laden's compound, taking a target alive is very much secondary.



For the military in general, this is something they shouldn't do, but evidence shows they'll almost certainly get away with it. It took years before anyone noticed that anything was happening at Abu Ghraib, and only then because some inmates died. Until Obama, torture of prisoners was a formal part of US military intelligence procedures - the issue at Abu Ghraib was simply that the staff there had not been told they could torture those prisoners, and that torture was not carried out according to procedures. She'll get a minor warning at best.



For the police in places ruled by law, this will almost certainly result in disciplinary proceedings. MC1 may need to make a formal complaint for that, of course. And the methods are not sound either - if she can rig a chokehold then she can equally well hogtie him, which is a much more effective way of stopping him running off. Or the cuffs can go on his ankles instead of his wrists, because however much bigger he is, removing his mobility limits his range to purely the reach of his arms. Then she waits for backup.



As a civilian, it's more of a grey area. If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal. Since it's a grey area, you may need to convince a court of that, of course.



But then you say it's Bolivia. Transparency International rate it 29/100 and 132nd out of 186 for rule of law. They had (and may still have) literal death squads of police going round executing street kids. For comparison, Saudi Arabia's police routinely sexually assault and beat prisoners as part of their interrogation, and they rate 49/100. Your MC2 is more likely to be commended for ingenuity, possibly with a verbal warning that we don't arrest these sort of people and we don't let them walk away. Normal rule-of-law principles simply don't apply in places like that.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









GrahamGraham

1,09725




1,09725







  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    yesterday












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    yesterday






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    yesterday











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday












  • 3





    "If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

    – a CVn
    yesterday












  • Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday











  • @aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

    – Graham
    yesterday






  • 2





    @Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

    – Graham
    yesterday











  • They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

    – Rasdashan
    yesterday







3




3





"If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

– a CVn
yesterday






"If you're immediately afraid for your life or for others, nothing you do to protect yourself or them is illegal." This very much depends on local law. In some places, what you say might be true. In others, not so much, depending on circumstances.

– a CVn
yesterday














Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

– Rasdashan
yesterday





Backup is hours away and she could get him to HQ before they arrived, so she leaves him his legs

– Rasdashan
yesterday













@aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

– Graham
yesterday





@aCVn Somewhat agree on the details, but that's the general principle of self-defence as a legal defence, and all systems of justice recognise that principle. The OP's scenario fails on that score because the easiest way to make herself safe is to let him run away - that's where many alleged self-defence cases (e.g. Tony Martin in the UK) fall down.

– Graham
yesterday




2




2





@Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

– Graham
yesterday





@Rasdashan I appreciate that's something which needs to happen in order for the rest of the plot to follow. It's still a bit like the young half-naked female character in a horror movie going down into the cellar though. A reasonably smart regular cop would just sit it out, knowing that however long they wait, they're still safe. Unless you can tweak your story somewhat so that backup isn't coming - maybe in a radio and phone blackspot?

– Graham
yesterday













They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

– Rasdashan
yesterday





They are in the middle of nowhere and reception is spotty at best. The manhunt is beginning - so they would reach her location by morning. She was nearby when she was called in - thought going to HQ a waste of time they did not have.

– Rasdashan
yesterday

















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대한민국 목차 국명 지리 역사 정치 국방 경제 사회 문화 국제 순위 관련 항목 각주 외부 링크 둘러보기 메뉴북위 37° 34′ 08″ 동경 126° 58′ 36″ / 북위 37.568889° 동경 126.976667°  / 37.568889; 126.976667ehThe Korean Repository문단을 편집문단을 편집추가해Clarkson PLC 사Report for Selected Countries and Subjects-Korea“Human Development Index and its components: P.198”“http://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C%EB%AF%BC%EA%B5%AD%EA%B5%AD%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95”"한국은 국제법상 한반도 유일 합법정부 아니다" - 오마이뉴스 모바일Report for Selected Countries and Subjects: South Korea격동의 역사와 함께한 조선일보 90년 : 조선일보 인수해 혁신시킨 신석우, 임시정부 때는 '대한민국' 국호(國號) 정해《우리가 몰랐던 우리 역사: 나라 이름의 비밀을 찾아가는 역사 여행》“남북 공식호칭 ‘남한’‘북한’으로 쓴다”“Corea 대 Korea, 누가 이긴 거야?”국내기후자료 - 한국[김대중 前 대통령 서거] 과감한 구조개혁 'DJ노믹스'로 최단기간 환란극복 :: 네이버 뉴스“이라크 "韓-쿠르드 유전개발 MOU 승인 안해"(종합)”“해외 우리국민 추방사례 43%가 일본”차기전차 K2'흑표'의 세계 최고 전력 분석, 쿠키뉴스 엄기영, 2007-03-02두산인프라, 헬기잡는 장갑차 'K21'...내년부터 공급, 고뉴스 이대준, 2008-10-30과거 내용 찾기mk 뉴스 - 구매력 기준으로 보면 한국 1인당 소득 3만弗과거 내용 찾기"The N-11: More Than an Acronym"Archived조선일보 최우석, 2008-11-01Global 500 2008: Countries - South Korea“몇년째 '시한폭탄'... 가계부채, 올해는 터질까”가구당 부채 5000만원 처음 넘어서“‘빚’으로 내몰리는 사회.. 위기의 가계대출”“[경제365] 공공부문 부채 급증…800조 육박”“"소득 양극화 다소 완화...불평등은 여전"”“공정사회·공생발전 한참 멀었네”iSuppli,08年2QのDRAMシェア・ランキングを発表(08/8/11)South Korea dominates shipbuilding industry | Stock Market News & Stocks to Watch from StraightStocks한국 자동차 생산, 3년 연속 세계 5위자동차수출 '현대-삼성 웃고 기아-대우-쌍용은 울고' 과거 내용 찾기동반성장위 창립 1주년 맞아Archived"중기적합 3개업종 합의 무시한 채 선정"李대통령, 사업 무분별 확장 소상공인 생계 위협 질타삼성-LG, 서민업종인 빵·분식사업 잇따라 철수상생은 뒷전…SSM ‘몸집 불리기’ 혈안Archived“경부고속도에 '아시안하이웨이' 표지판”'철의 실크로드' 앞서 '말(言)의 실크로드'부터, 프레시안 정창현, 2008-10-01“'서울 지하철은 안전한가?'”“서울시 “올해 안에 모든 지하철역 스크린도어 설치””“부산지하철 1,2호선 승강장 안전펜스 설치 완료”“전교조, 정부 노조 통계서 처음 빠져”“[Weekly BIZ] 도요타 '제로 이사회'가 리콜 사태 불러들였다”“S Korea slams high tuition costs”““정치가 여론 양극화 부채질… 합리주의 절실””“〈"`촛불집회'는 민주주의의 질적 변화 상징"〉”““촛불집회가 민주주의 왜곡 초래””“국민 65%, "한국 노사관계 대립적"”“한국 국가경쟁력 27위‥노사관계 '꼴찌'”“제대로 형성되지 않은 대한민국 이념지형”“[신년기획-갈등의 시대] 갈등지수 OECD 4위…사회적 손실 GDP 27% 무려 300조”“2012 총선-대선의 키워드는 '국민과 소통'”“한국 삶의 질 27위, 2000년과 2008년 연속 하위권 머물러”“[해피 코리아] 행복점수 68점…해외 평가선 '낙제점'”“한국 어린이·청소년 행복지수 3년 연속 OECD ‘꼴찌’”“한국 이혼율 OECD중 8위”“[통계청] 한국 이혼율 OECD 4위”“오피니언 [이렇게 생각한다] `부부의 날` 에 돌아본 이혼율 1위 한국”“Suicide Rates by Country, Global Health Observatory Data Repository.”“1. 또 다른 차별”“오피니언 [편집자에게] '왕따'와 '패거리 정치' 심리는 닮은꼴”“[미래한국리포트] 무한경쟁에 빠진 대한민국”“대학생 98% "외모가 경쟁력이라는 말 동의"”“특급호텔 웨딩·200만원대 유모차… "남보다 더…" 호화病, 고질병 됐다”“[스트레스 공화국] ① 경쟁사회, 스트레스 쌓인다”““매일 30여명 자살 한국, 의사보다 무속인에…””“"자살 부르는 '우울증', 환자 중 85% 치료 안 받아"”“정신병원을 가다”“대한민국도 ‘묻지마 범죄’,안전지대 아니다”“유엔 "학생 '성적 지향'에 따른 차별 금지하라"”“유엔아동권리위원회 보고서 및 번역본 원문”“고졸 성공스토리 담은 '제빵왕 김탁구' 드라마 나온다”“‘빛 좋은 개살구’ 고졸 취업…실습 대신 착취”원본 문서“정신건강, 사회적 편견부터 고쳐드립니다”‘소통’과 ‘행복’에 목 마른 사회가 잠들어 있던 ‘심리학’ 깨웠다“[포토] 사유리-곽금주 교수의 유쾌한 심리상담”“"올해 한국인 평균 영화관람횟수 세계 1위"(종합)”“[게임연중기획] 게임은 문화다-여가활동 1순위 게임”“영화속 ‘영어 지상주의’ …“왠지 씁쓸한데””“2월 `신문 부수 인증기관` 지정..방송법 후속작업”“무료신문 성장동력 ‘차별성’과 ‘갈등해소’”대한민국 국회 법률지식정보시스템"Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project: South Korea"“amp;vwcd=MT_ZTITLE&path=인구·가구%20>%20인구총조사%20>%20인구부문%20>%20 총조사인구(2005)%20>%20전수부문&oper_YN=Y&item=&keyword=종교별%20인구& amp;lang_mode=kor&list_id= 2005년 통계청 인구 총조사”원본 문서“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2009)”“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2014)”Archived“한국, `부분적 언론자유국' 강등〈프리덤하우스〉”“국경없는기자회 "한국, 인터넷감시 대상국"”“한국, 조선산업 1위 유지(S. Korea Stays Top Shipbuilding Nation) RZD-Partner Portal”원본 문서“한국, 4년 만에 ‘선박건조 1위’”“옛 마산시,인터넷속도 세계 1위”“"한국 초고속 인터넷망 세계1위"”“인터넷·휴대폰 요금, 외국보다 훨씬 비싸”“한국 관세행정 6년 연속 세계 '1위'”“한국 교통사고 사망자 수 OECD 회원국 중 2위”“결핵 후진국' 한국, 환자가 급증한 이유는”“수술은 신중해야… 자칫하면 생명 위협”대한민국분류대한민국의 지도대한민국 정부대표 다국어포털대한민국 전자정부대한민국 국회한국방송공사about korea and information korea브리태니커 백과사전(한국편)론리플래닛의 정보(한국편)CIA의 세계 정보(한국편)마리암 부디아 (Mariam Budia),『한국: 하늘이 내린 한 폭의 그림』, 서울: 트랜스라틴 19호 (2012년 3월)대한민국ehehehehehehehehehehehehehehWorldCat132441370n791268020000 0001 2308 81034078029-6026373548cb11863345f(데이터)00573706ge128495