How do ground effect vehicles perform turns?What is ground effect?How come the ground effect has such a different outcome for wings and cars?What is the effect of uneven ground on ground effect vehicles?Why do aircraft need a vertical tailfin, but birds don't? (and lots of fish do?)Can we borrow Formula One's ground effect for airplanes?What are the effects of the tilted lift vector in a banked plane?How high does the ground effect last?What are the dynamic stability properties of an aircraft with wings exactly at the vertical CoG?Why do wall-to-wall airfoils in wind tunnels produce no (or infinitesimal) downwash?How would a low-airspeed fixed-wing drone be designed to reduce effects from gusts and wind shear?
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How do ground effect vehicles perform turns?
What is ground effect?How come the ground effect has such a different outcome for wings and cars?What is the effect of uneven ground on ground effect vehicles?Why do aircraft need a vertical tailfin, but birds don't? (and lots of fish do?)Can we borrow Formula One's ground effect for airplanes?What are the effects of the tilted lift vector in a banked plane?How high does the ground effect last?What are the dynamic stability properties of an aircraft with wings exactly at the vertical CoG?Why do wall-to-wall airfoils in wind tunnels produce no (or infinitesimal) downwash?How would a low-airspeed fixed-wing drone be designed to reduce effects from gusts and wind shear?
$begingroup$
Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?
I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?
aerodynamics ground-effect
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?
I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?
aerodynamics ground-effect
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
$endgroup$
8
$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?
I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?
aerodynamics ground-effect
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
$endgroup$
Considering that Wing-In-Ground-Effect (WIGE) vehicles fly with a rather low ground clearance, there is not much room for banking. How do WIGE vehicles turn? Do they turn just very slow with a low bank angle? Or do they turn uncoordinated with wings level?
I can imagine that banking has an opposite effect: the raised wing has less ground effect so more drag so it creates some countering yaw moment. Is this correct?
aerodynamics ground-effect
aerodynamics ground-effect
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
edited 18 hours ago
Zeiss Ikon
3,452418
3,452418
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
asked yesterday
FlorianFlorian
1,9442725
1,9442725
8
$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
yesterday
add a comment |
8
$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
yesterday
8
8
$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday
$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
yesterday
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.
It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.
The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.
It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
1
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oldest
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votes
$begingroup$
It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.
It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.
The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.
It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.
It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.
The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.
It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.
It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.
The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.
It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
$endgroup$
It turns like an airplane by tilting the lift vector. Watch carefully in this video, especially about 50 seconds in, and you can see the craft is turning by banking.
It just can't bank very hard unless it climbs a little higher. This is one of the problems of GE aircraft; they aren't very maneuverable because they can only make gentle turns at the normal cruising level close to the surface.
The alternative to banking, if you don't have enough room to roll, is skidding, where you are redirecting the thrust vector and also generating some lateral force from the sideways presentation of the craft's body. Basically like a hovercraft. A lot less efficient though because of the drag rise from the skid. Some of those really big GE machines like the Ekranoplan would have used skidding (kind of obvious from the huge rudder that it's designed to skid) and maybe a little bit of bank.
It's probably a good thing that this concept has not been all that successful. If the world was full of these types of machines crisscrossing every which way over oceans and lakes, all at the same level and going pretty fast, you probably have a lot more mid-airs than you get with airplanes, or boat collisions for that matter.
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
edited 20 hours ago
ymb1
68.3k7216363
68.3k7216363
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
answered yesterday
John KJohn K
23k13267
23k13267
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
How did large versions like the Ekranoplan turn? Looks like there's a fairly large rudder, and engine thrust might have been used. There doesn't seem to be much margin for bank angle.
$endgroup$
– rcgldr
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
It never occurred to me that such craft would indeed "meet" - just like ground vehicles! You'd need stop signs and so on.
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
$begingroup$
@rcgldr thanks for the mention I added an extra paragraph to address that.
$endgroup$
– John K
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
Stop signs on buoys! That would be rather funny, @Fattie!
$endgroup$
– FreeMan
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
$begingroup$
@FreeMan - right :)
$endgroup$
– Fattie
16 hours ago
add a comment |
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8
$begingroup$
"carefully" ....
$endgroup$
– Fattie
yesterday
$begingroup$
Wouldn't the raised wing have less drag, because it's experiencing less ground effect, ergo producing less lift, ergo generating less induced drag?
$endgroup$
– Sean
yesterday
1
$begingroup$
@Sean, no: the essence of the ground effect that you get more lift for the same drag. Or same lfit with less drag. Also, if you are in a sustained banked turn, then by definition both half-wings produce the same lift - otherwise you'd be rolling with acceleration. It follows that the surface that is less in ground effect will have more drag. (Plus there are usual effects due to ailerons position etc. - which usually contribute with the same sign).
$endgroup$
– Zeus
yesterday