Walter Rudin's mathematical analysis: theorem 2.43. Why proof can't work under the perfect set is uncountable.Theorem 2.43 in Baby Rudin: How to understand the proof?Theorem 2.13 in Walter Rudin's Principles of Mathematical AnalysisWalter Rudin's Principle's of Mathematical AnalysisTheorem 2.43 in Baby Rudin: How to understand the proof?Trouble with Froda's Theorem Proof QuestionProof of Rudin's Theorem 2.43Understanding proof in Walter Rudin's Mathematical AnalysisProve that two sets A and B with $A cap B=emptyset$, $sup A = sup B$, $sup A notin A$ and $sup B notin B$ cannot exist.Let A be the set of all sequences of 0’s and 1’s (binary sequences). Prove that A is uncountable using Cantor's Diagonal Argument.Theorem 2.14 in Walter Rudin's Principles of Mathematical AnalysisWhy does this proof that the set of all finite subsets of N is a countable set not work for the set of all subsets of N?
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Walter Rudin's mathematical analysis: theorem 2.43. Why proof can't work under the perfect set is uncountable.
Theorem 2.43 in Baby Rudin: How to understand the proof?Theorem 2.13 in Walter Rudin's Principles of Mathematical AnalysisWalter Rudin's Principle's of Mathematical AnalysisTheorem 2.43 in Baby Rudin: How to understand the proof?Trouble with Froda's Theorem Proof QuestionProof of Rudin's Theorem 2.43Understanding proof in Walter Rudin's Mathematical AnalysisProve that two sets A and B with $A cap B=emptyset$, $sup A = sup B$, $sup A notin A$ and $sup B notin B$ cannot exist.Let A be the set of all sequences of 0’s and 1’s (binary sequences). Prove that A is uncountable using Cantor's Diagonal Argument.Theorem 2.14 in Walter Rudin's Principles of Mathematical AnalysisWhy does this proof that the set of all finite subsets of N is a countable set not work for the set of all subsets of N?
$begingroup$
I found several discussions about this theorem, like this one. I understand the proof adopts contradiction by assuming the perfect set $P$ is countable.
My question is if the assumption is $P$ is uncountable, the proof seems remains the same, i.e., the $P$ can't be uncountable either. In other words, I think whatever the assumption is, we can draw the contradiction in any way.
I don't understand in which way the uncountable condition could solve the contradiction in the proof.
real-analysis analysis
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I found several discussions about this theorem, like this one. I understand the proof adopts contradiction by assuming the perfect set $P$ is countable.
My question is if the assumption is $P$ is uncountable, the proof seems remains the same, i.e., the $P$ can't be uncountable either. In other words, I think whatever the assumption is, we can draw the contradiction in any way.
I don't understand in which way the uncountable condition could solve the contradiction in the proof.
real-analysis analysis
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
With the metric on $P$ inherited from the usual metric on $Bbb R^n$, the space $P$ is a complete metric space with no isolated points. We can show that a non-empty complete metric space $X$ with no isolated points has a subspace $Y$ which is homeomorphic to the Cantor Set. For the purposes of this Q it suffices to show there is a $Ysubset X$ which is a bijective image of the set of all binary sequences.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I found several discussions about this theorem, like this one. I understand the proof adopts contradiction by assuming the perfect set $P$ is countable.
My question is if the assumption is $P$ is uncountable, the proof seems remains the same, i.e., the $P$ can't be uncountable either. In other words, I think whatever the assumption is, we can draw the contradiction in any way.
I don't understand in which way the uncountable condition could solve the contradiction in the proof.
real-analysis analysis
$endgroup$
I found several discussions about this theorem, like this one. I understand the proof adopts contradiction by assuming the perfect set $P$ is countable.
My question is if the assumption is $P$ is uncountable, the proof seems remains the same, i.e., the $P$ can't be uncountable either. In other words, I think whatever the assumption is, we can draw the contradiction in any way.
I don't understand in which way the uncountable condition could solve the contradiction in the proof.
real-analysis analysis
real-analysis analysis
edited yesterday
Tengerye
asked yesterday
TengeryeTengerye
1627
1627
$begingroup$
With the metric on $P$ inherited from the usual metric on $Bbb R^n$, the space $P$ is a complete metric space with no isolated points. We can show that a non-empty complete metric space $X$ with no isolated points has a subspace $Y$ which is homeomorphic to the Cantor Set. For the purposes of this Q it suffices to show there is a $Ysubset X$ which is a bijective image of the set of all binary sequences.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
With the metric on $P$ inherited from the usual metric on $Bbb R^n$, the space $P$ is a complete metric space with no isolated points. We can show that a non-empty complete metric space $X$ with no isolated points has a subspace $Y$ which is homeomorphic to the Cantor Set. For the purposes of this Q it suffices to show there is a $Ysubset X$ which is a bijective image of the set of all binary sequences.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
With the metric on $P$ inherited from the usual metric on $Bbb R^n$, the space $P$ is a complete metric space with no isolated points. We can show that a non-empty complete metric space $X$ with no isolated points has a subspace $Y$ which is homeomorphic to the Cantor Set. For the purposes of this Q it suffices to show there is a $Ysubset X$ which is a bijective image of the set of all binary sequences.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
With the metric on $P$ inherited from the usual metric on $Bbb R^n$, the space $P$ is a complete metric space with no isolated points. We can show that a non-empty complete metric space $X$ with no isolated points has a subspace $Y$ which is homeomorphic to the Cantor Set. For the purposes of this Q it suffices to show there is a $Ysubset X$ which is a bijective image of the set of all binary sequences.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
First, there's a typo in your question: the proof proceeds by assuming for contradiction that $P$ is countable (not uncountable, as you've written).
More substantively, countability is used right away: we write $P$ as $x_n: ninmathbbN$ and recursively define a sequence of sets $V_n$ ($ninmathbbN$).
If $P$ were uncountable, we couldn't index the elements of $P$ by natural numbers. We'd have to index them by something else - say, some uncountable ordinal. So now $P$ has the form $y_eta:eta<lambda$ for some $lambda>omega$.
We can now proceed to build our $V$-sets as before, but at the "first infinite step" we run into trouble: we need $V_etacap P$ to be nonempty for each $eta$, but how do we keep that up forever? In fact, our $V$-sets might disappear entirely: while at each finite stage we've stayed nonempty, but we could easily "become empty in the limit" (consider the sequence of sets $(0,1)supset(0,1over 2)supset (0,1over 3)supset ...$). The recursive construction of the $V_n$s - which is the heart of the whole proof - relies on always having a "most recent" $V$-set at each stage, that is, only considering at most $mathbbN$-many $V$-sets in total. That this is sufficient follows from the countability of $P$. As soon as we drop this, our contradiction vanishes.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Baire Category Theorem: If $P$ is a complete metric space and $F$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of $P$ then $cap F$ is dense in $P.$
Suppose $P$ is a non-empty closed subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Let $P$ inherit the usual metric from $Bbb R^n.$ Then $P$ is a complete metric space. Now suppose $P$ is countable and is a perfect subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Then $F=P setminus x: xin P$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of the space $P,$ so $cap F=emptyset$ is dense in $P,$ which is absurd.
(If $P$ were not assumed to be perfect then not all members of $F$ could be assumed to be dense in $P.$)
Aside: The proof of the Baire Category Theorem is direct and simple. Some students seem to be uncomfortable about this theorem, perhaps because it is unlike anything they've ever seen.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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$begingroup$
First, there's a typo in your question: the proof proceeds by assuming for contradiction that $P$ is countable (not uncountable, as you've written).
More substantively, countability is used right away: we write $P$ as $x_n: ninmathbbN$ and recursively define a sequence of sets $V_n$ ($ninmathbbN$).
If $P$ were uncountable, we couldn't index the elements of $P$ by natural numbers. We'd have to index them by something else - say, some uncountable ordinal. So now $P$ has the form $y_eta:eta<lambda$ for some $lambda>omega$.
We can now proceed to build our $V$-sets as before, but at the "first infinite step" we run into trouble: we need $V_etacap P$ to be nonempty for each $eta$, but how do we keep that up forever? In fact, our $V$-sets might disappear entirely: while at each finite stage we've stayed nonempty, but we could easily "become empty in the limit" (consider the sequence of sets $(0,1)supset(0,1over 2)supset (0,1over 3)supset ...$). The recursive construction of the $V_n$s - which is the heart of the whole proof - relies on always having a "most recent" $V$-set at each stage, that is, only considering at most $mathbbN$-many $V$-sets in total. That this is sufficient follows from the countability of $P$. As soon as we drop this, our contradiction vanishes.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First, there's a typo in your question: the proof proceeds by assuming for contradiction that $P$ is countable (not uncountable, as you've written).
More substantively, countability is used right away: we write $P$ as $x_n: ninmathbbN$ and recursively define a sequence of sets $V_n$ ($ninmathbbN$).
If $P$ were uncountable, we couldn't index the elements of $P$ by natural numbers. We'd have to index them by something else - say, some uncountable ordinal. So now $P$ has the form $y_eta:eta<lambda$ for some $lambda>omega$.
We can now proceed to build our $V$-sets as before, but at the "first infinite step" we run into trouble: we need $V_etacap P$ to be nonempty for each $eta$, but how do we keep that up forever? In fact, our $V$-sets might disappear entirely: while at each finite stage we've stayed nonempty, but we could easily "become empty in the limit" (consider the sequence of sets $(0,1)supset(0,1over 2)supset (0,1over 3)supset ...$). The recursive construction of the $V_n$s - which is the heart of the whole proof - relies on always having a "most recent" $V$-set at each stage, that is, only considering at most $mathbbN$-many $V$-sets in total. That this is sufficient follows from the countability of $P$. As soon as we drop this, our contradiction vanishes.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
First, there's a typo in your question: the proof proceeds by assuming for contradiction that $P$ is countable (not uncountable, as you've written).
More substantively, countability is used right away: we write $P$ as $x_n: ninmathbbN$ and recursively define a sequence of sets $V_n$ ($ninmathbbN$).
If $P$ were uncountable, we couldn't index the elements of $P$ by natural numbers. We'd have to index them by something else - say, some uncountable ordinal. So now $P$ has the form $y_eta:eta<lambda$ for some $lambda>omega$.
We can now proceed to build our $V$-sets as before, but at the "first infinite step" we run into trouble: we need $V_etacap P$ to be nonempty for each $eta$, but how do we keep that up forever? In fact, our $V$-sets might disappear entirely: while at each finite stage we've stayed nonempty, but we could easily "become empty in the limit" (consider the sequence of sets $(0,1)supset(0,1over 2)supset (0,1over 3)supset ...$). The recursive construction of the $V_n$s - which is the heart of the whole proof - relies on always having a "most recent" $V$-set at each stage, that is, only considering at most $mathbbN$-many $V$-sets in total. That this is sufficient follows from the countability of $P$. As soon as we drop this, our contradiction vanishes.
$endgroup$
First, there's a typo in your question: the proof proceeds by assuming for contradiction that $P$ is countable (not uncountable, as you've written).
More substantively, countability is used right away: we write $P$ as $x_n: ninmathbbN$ and recursively define a sequence of sets $V_n$ ($ninmathbbN$).
If $P$ were uncountable, we couldn't index the elements of $P$ by natural numbers. We'd have to index them by something else - say, some uncountable ordinal. So now $P$ has the form $y_eta:eta<lambda$ for some $lambda>omega$.
We can now proceed to build our $V$-sets as before, but at the "first infinite step" we run into trouble: we need $V_etacap P$ to be nonempty for each $eta$, but how do we keep that up forever? In fact, our $V$-sets might disappear entirely: while at each finite stage we've stayed nonempty, but we could easily "become empty in the limit" (consider the sequence of sets $(0,1)supset(0,1over 2)supset (0,1over 3)supset ...$). The recursive construction of the $V_n$s - which is the heart of the whole proof - relies on always having a "most recent" $V$-set at each stage, that is, only considering at most $mathbbN$-many $V$-sets in total. That this is sufficient follows from the countability of $P$. As soon as we drop this, our contradiction vanishes.
answered yesterday
Noah SchweberNoah Schweber
127k10151291
127k10151291
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you so much. I have revised my question.
$endgroup$
– Tengerye
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Baire Category Theorem: If $P$ is a complete metric space and $F$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of $P$ then $cap F$ is dense in $P.$
Suppose $P$ is a non-empty closed subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Let $P$ inherit the usual metric from $Bbb R^n.$ Then $P$ is a complete metric space. Now suppose $P$ is countable and is a perfect subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Then $F=P setminus x: xin P$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of the space $P,$ so $cap F=emptyset$ is dense in $P,$ which is absurd.
(If $P$ were not assumed to be perfect then not all members of $F$ could be assumed to be dense in $P.$)
Aside: The proof of the Baire Category Theorem is direct and simple. Some students seem to be uncomfortable about this theorem, perhaps because it is unlike anything they've ever seen.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Baire Category Theorem: If $P$ is a complete metric space and $F$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of $P$ then $cap F$ is dense in $P.$
Suppose $P$ is a non-empty closed subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Let $P$ inherit the usual metric from $Bbb R^n.$ Then $P$ is a complete metric space. Now suppose $P$ is countable and is a perfect subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Then $F=P setminus x: xin P$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of the space $P,$ so $cap F=emptyset$ is dense in $P,$ which is absurd.
(If $P$ were not assumed to be perfect then not all members of $F$ could be assumed to be dense in $P.$)
Aside: The proof of the Baire Category Theorem is direct and simple. Some students seem to be uncomfortable about this theorem, perhaps because it is unlike anything they've ever seen.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The Baire Category Theorem: If $P$ is a complete metric space and $F$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of $P$ then $cap F$ is dense in $P.$
Suppose $P$ is a non-empty closed subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Let $P$ inherit the usual metric from $Bbb R^n.$ Then $P$ is a complete metric space. Now suppose $P$ is countable and is a perfect subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Then $F=P setminus x: xin P$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of the space $P,$ so $cap F=emptyset$ is dense in $P,$ which is absurd.
(If $P$ were not assumed to be perfect then not all members of $F$ could be assumed to be dense in $P.$)
Aside: The proof of the Baire Category Theorem is direct and simple. Some students seem to be uncomfortable about this theorem, perhaps because it is unlike anything they've ever seen.
$endgroup$
The Baire Category Theorem: If $P$ is a complete metric space and $F$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of $P$ then $cap F$ is dense in $P.$
Suppose $P$ is a non-empty closed subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Let $P$ inherit the usual metric from $Bbb R^n.$ Then $P$ is a complete metric space. Now suppose $P$ is countable and is a perfect subset of $Bbb R^n.$ Then $F=P setminus x: xin P$ is a non-empty countable family of dense open subsets of the space $P,$ so $cap F=emptyset$ is dense in $P,$ which is absurd.
(If $P$ were not assumed to be perfect then not all members of $F$ could be assumed to be dense in $P.$)
Aside: The proof of the Baire Category Theorem is direct and simple. Some students seem to be uncomfortable about this theorem, perhaps because it is unlike anything they've ever seen.
edited 22 hours ago
answered 22 hours ago
DanielWainfleetDanielWainfleet
35.6k31648
35.6k31648
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
$begingroup$
This A is unrelated to my comment to the Q regarding a subset of $P$ that's homeomorphic to the Cantor Set
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago
add a comment |
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With the metric on $P$ inherited from the usual metric on $Bbb R^n$, the space $P$ is a complete metric space with no isolated points. We can show that a non-empty complete metric space $X$ with no isolated points has a subspace $Y$ which is homeomorphic to the Cantor Set. For the purposes of this Q it suffices to show there is a $Ysubset X$ which is a bijective image of the set of all binary sequences.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
22 hours ago