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Why is information “lost” when it got into a black hole?



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhy isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?Why isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?Why is information indestructible?Does the Black Hole Information Paradox apply to nonstationary black holes?If distant observers never see a black hole form in finite time how can the information paradox be a problem?No hair theorem and black hole entropyWhat is the black hole information paradox really?Loss of Information and the Black Hole SingularityBlack hole information paradox and entropy of the UniverseDark black hole informationIf matter cannot be transformed into information, why do we say that information about matter is lost when we talk about black hole paradox?










15












$begingroup$


The black hole information loss paradox is the paradox that information can not be lost, but is lost when it got into a black hole.



But I do not see why it is lost at all.



I see it is no longer accessible, but that is different from being lost.
I assume information is something local, that a bit is inside a finite volume of spacetime. Also, I assume a black hole is something local, it is inside a finite volume of spacetime.



It seems to me that information is merely "elsewhere" in some sense, but that does not mean it does no longer exist. I understand that lost means "no longer located in the universe". But how does it cease to be in the universe? Do we know, or at least assume it is "destroyed" in some way related to the black hole, or even in some specific way?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    15












    $begingroup$


    The black hole information loss paradox is the paradox that information can not be lost, but is lost when it got into a black hole.



    But I do not see why it is lost at all.



    I see it is no longer accessible, but that is different from being lost.
    I assume information is something local, that a bit is inside a finite volume of spacetime. Also, I assume a black hole is something local, it is inside a finite volume of spacetime.



    It seems to me that information is merely "elsewhere" in some sense, but that does not mean it does no longer exist. I understand that lost means "no longer located in the universe". But how does it cease to be in the universe? Do we know, or at least assume it is "destroyed" in some way related to the black hole, or even in some specific way?










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      15












      15








      15


      11



      $begingroup$


      The black hole information loss paradox is the paradox that information can not be lost, but is lost when it got into a black hole.



      But I do not see why it is lost at all.



      I see it is no longer accessible, but that is different from being lost.
      I assume information is something local, that a bit is inside a finite volume of spacetime. Also, I assume a black hole is something local, it is inside a finite volume of spacetime.



      It seems to me that information is merely "elsewhere" in some sense, but that does not mean it does no longer exist. I understand that lost means "no longer located in the universe". But how does it cease to be in the universe? Do we know, or at least assume it is "destroyed" in some way related to the black hole, or even in some specific way?










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      The black hole information loss paradox is the paradox that information can not be lost, but is lost when it got into a black hole.



      But I do not see why it is lost at all.



      I see it is no longer accessible, but that is different from being lost.
      I assume information is something local, that a bit is inside a finite volume of spacetime. Also, I assume a black hole is something local, it is inside a finite volume of spacetime.



      It seems to me that information is merely "elsewhere" in some sense, but that does not mean it does no longer exist. I understand that lost means "no longer located in the universe". But how does it cease to be in the universe? Do we know, or at least assume it is "destroyed" in some way related to the black hole, or even in some specific way?







      black-holes quantum-information information






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 2 days ago







      Volker Siegel

















      asked 2 days ago









      Volker SiegelVolker Siegel

      2,62811845




      2,62811845




















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          24












          $begingroup$

          In classical physics, there is no black hole information loss paradox: the information is lost, and that's all there is to it. No paradox. (See Ben Crowell's answer.)



          The famous "black hole information loss paradox" comes from considering the behavior of quantum fields in the background spacetime of a black hole formed by a collapsing star. That analysis gives us a compelling reason to believe that a black hole eventually evaporates due to Hawking radiation. After it evaporates, presumably nothing is left — no event horizon, no singularity.



          The problem is to explain how the information about everything that fell into the black hole gets back out by the time the black hole is done evaporating. The seemingly-obvious answer is that it comes back out gradually via the Hawking radiation, just like information that was written on a piece of paper and then burned would be encoded (in a practically useless scrambled form) in the light, smoke, and atmospheric molecular motions that are produced by the burning process.



          Presumably the information eventually does come back out (in scrambled form) via the radiation, but the challenge is to explain how that happens. The naive analogy with a burning piece of paper doesn't work, at least not as far as we can tell using the standard approximation that was used to derive Hawking radiation in the first place. Luboš Motl's answer to the question



          Why isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?



          addresses this very briefly, and several reviews on arxiv.org address it in more depth. One example is [1], which says:




          conventional physics implies the Hawking effect to differ fundamentally from familiar thermal emission from hot objects like stars or burning wood.




          The difference (explained more carefully in [1]) is related to the fact that when we burn a piece of wood or paper, the original information ends up being stored in subtle correlations across the resulting light, smoke, atmospheric molecular motions, and so on; but for a black hole, because of the way Hawking radiation works, Hawking-radiation modes that were emitted at different times cannot be correlated with each other in that way, at least not within the approximation that is normally used to derive the radiation in the first place. (The Appendix offers a few comments about that approximation.)



          The black hole information paradox is especially paradoxical because the aforementioned approximation is expected to be adequate during most of the black hole's lifetime, but in the final moments when the approximation is expected to fail, there isn't enough of the black hole left to restore the necessary correlations. In one author's words [2]:




          The black hole information paradox forces us into a strange situation: we must find a way to break the semiclassical approximation in a domain where no quantum gravity effects would normally be expected.




          Like any paradox, this one will presumably be resolved after we learn how to formulate the problem properly. As noted in the Appendix, this requires using a theory of quantum gravity (but see the Edit at the end), and it is still an active area of current research.




          Appendix: The approximation used to derive Hawking radiation



          Hawking derived Hawking radiation using an approximation that considers the behavior of quantum fields in a prescribed spacetime background. (Most modern reviews derive it essentially the same way.) The prescribed background corresponds to the black hole formed by a collapsing star. This approximation violates the "conservation of energy," because the spacetime background affects the behavior of the quantum fields (leading to Hawking radiation), but the quantum fields don't affect the spacetime background. In particular, the black hole doesn't actually evaporate in this approximation, even though it does radiate. This is acknowledged in [3]:




          Hawking's original derivation... considered a quantum scalar field propagating on a fixed [aka prescribed], but dynamic, background space-time corresponding to the formation of a four-dimensional Schwarzschild black hole by the gravitational collapse of matter in asymptotically flat space.




          and in [4]:




          As word of his calculation began to spread, Hawking published a simplified version of it in Nature... However, even at this stage Hawking was not certain of the result and so expressed the title as a question, "Black hole explosions?" He noted that the calculation ignored the change in the metric due to the particles created and to quantum fluctuations.




          In reality, we expect the influence to go both ways, so that the black hole loses mass as it evaporates. We can (and Hawking did) try to account for the black hole's mass-loss in a kind of "semiclassical" approximation in which we artificially decrease the black hole's mass according to a kind of "average" amount of radiation that it has emitted so far; but that approximation is not self-consistent, as explained in a blog post by Luboš Motl [5].



          To really understand what happens when a black hole evaporates, we need to use a theory of quantum gravity. Heuristically, if the spacetime metric is influenced by quantum fields, which can form quantum superpositions, then the spacetime metric itself will be forced into quantum superpositions (very heuristically), so we need to use a theory of quantum gravity to really understand what's happening when a black hole evaporates. This is still an active area of research today.




          Edit: I forgot about this...



          In a comment, Dvij Mankad kindly reminded me of another line of research that calls into question the assertion that we need a full theory of quantum gravity to resolve the info-loss paradox. I'm not qualified to review that recent development myself, but it is reviewed in [6]. Here's an excerpt from section 1.4.5, where "IR" (infrared) is slang for "very long wavelength phenomena":




          Although I did not start this IR project with black holes in mind, as usual, all roads lead to black holes... The IR structure has important implications for the information paradox... This paradox is intertwined with the deep IR because an infinite number of soft gravitons and soft photons are produced in the process of black hole formation and evaporation. These soft particles carry information with a very low energy cost.





          References:



          [1] Marolf (2017), "The Black Hole information problem: past, present, and future," https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.02143



          [2] Mathur (2012), "Black Holes and Beyond," https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.0776



          [3] Kanti and Winstanley, (2014),“Hawking Radiation from Higher-Dimensional Black Holes,” https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3952



          [4] Page (2004), "Hawking Radiation and Black Hole Thermodynamics," https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409024



          [5] Luboš Motl (2012), "Why "semiclassical gravity" isn't self-consistent," https://motls.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-semiclassical-gravity-isnt-self.html



          [6] Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," http://arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
            $endgroup$
            – Dvij Mankad
            2 days ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
            $endgroup$
            – Dvij Mankad
            2 days ago







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
            $endgroup$
            – Chiral Anomaly
            2 days ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
            $endgroup$
            – Chiral Anomaly
            2 days ago










          • $begingroup$
            It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
            $endgroup$
            – Wildcard
            2 days ago


















          5












          $begingroup$

          You are correct. Information is not lost when it gets into the black hole, it appears to be lost when that black hole subsequently evaporates via the Hawking radiation. If that radiation is fully thermal, then it cannot contain any of the information from the inside of the black hole, so when there is no black hole left one can ask, where did the information go?



          For an informal overview of the paradox and its proposed solutions, have a look at this blogpost. Though it is more than 10 years old, it is a good place to start.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$




















            5












            $begingroup$

            The full black hole information paradox is a paradox that involves not just classical physics but also the semiclassical physics of black hole evaporation. But this question is posed completely in the language of classical physics, so it has a classical answer. Once information (say in the form of particles) enters the event horizon of a black hole, it can exist for only a finite proper time before it hits the singularity. In the context of classical GR, all we can really say is that hitting the singularity means that the information is destroyed. Even if you dive in to the black hole in an effort to retrieve the information, you will only succeed if you do it soon enough.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$




















              0












              $begingroup$

              In layman's terms if information is considered "lost" that implies that one believes they could not reverse-engineer what exactly went in to the black hole.



              Why? Because if you can figure out all of the math involved in all equations then you could take the real-time math problem that is existence and reverse calculate what has already happened which in effect would allow you to become partially aware of what will happen.



              In example is a comet passes Earth it is not "random" as random is super-natural (e.g. not possible). Given enough energy, resources, technology, time, etc we could ultimately back-trace where that comet originally came from prior to entering our Solar system. So long as the prerequisites are provided at each desired step we could continue to back-trace it's origins far before the point a given object could be referenced in a singular form (e.g. decillions of atoms spread across unfathomable amounts of space which eventually formed that given comet).



              Since we as a species are new-borns technologically-speaking we are utterly ignorant about how we might deconstruct the physical properties of a black hole. Does material simply stick to the outer-most point like a magnet to the surface of a refrigerator and remain in place moving only as the black hole occasionally evaporates or is the interior of a black hole like water where (what are ultimately waves) moving around or something we would currently consider exotic?



              When waves are sucked in to a black hole we may want to consider if there is any meaningful (in spite of the incredibly small proportions) difference between one wave or another? The other consideration for the possibility of dynamic or "fluid" internal structure (which would complicate information being reverse-engineered) is what effects that the intense conditions may create under the various laws of existence (thermodynamics, physics) that we are not aware of in more traditional and familiar conditions? In example waves heat up as they get sucked around a black hole, does the gravity automatically negate the vibrations of the waves once they are part of the black hole? Would they be considered "almost immeasurable" by what we could now consider utterly exotic levels of technology that we millions of years from now (or other species currently) possess?



              Since there is no such thing as random all things are technically predictable since existence is ultimately just a real-time math problem (that so happens to be wildly convoluted). There likely may be a point in our specicie's technological evolution where a more sophisticated problem may exist yet we are not yet aware of the phenomenon to be able to consider that given challenge.






              share|cite|improve this answer








              New contributor




              John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
              Check out our Code of Conduct.






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                4 Answers
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                24












                $begingroup$

                In classical physics, there is no black hole information loss paradox: the information is lost, and that's all there is to it. No paradox. (See Ben Crowell's answer.)



                The famous "black hole information loss paradox" comes from considering the behavior of quantum fields in the background spacetime of a black hole formed by a collapsing star. That analysis gives us a compelling reason to believe that a black hole eventually evaporates due to Hawking radiation. After it evaporates, presumably nothing is left — no event horizon, no singularity.



                The problem is to explain how the information about everything that fell into the black hole gets back out by the time the black hole is done evaporating. The seemingly-obvious answer is that it comes back out gradually via the Hawking radiation, just like information that was written on a piece of paper and then burned would be encoded (in a practically useless scrambled form) in the light, smoke, and atmospheric molecular motions that are produced by the burning process.



                Presumably the information eventually does come back out (in scrambled form) via the radiation, but the challenge is to explain how that happens. The naive analogy with a burning piece of paper doesn't work, at least not as far as we can tell using the standard approximation that was used to derive Hawking radiation in the first place. Luboš Motl's answer to the question



                Why isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?



                addresses this very briefly, and several reviews on arxiv.org address it in more depth. One example is [1], which says:




                conventional physics implies the Hawking effect to differ fundamentally from familiar thermal emission from hot objects like stars or burning wood.




                The difference (explained more carefully in [1]) is related to the fact that when we burn a piece of wood or paper, the original information ends up being stored in subtle correlations across the resulting light, smoke, atmospheric molecular motions, and so on; but for a black hole, because of the way Hawking radiation works, Hawking-radiation modes that were emitted at different times cannot be correlated with each other in that way, at least not within the approximation that is normally used to derive the radiation in the first place. (The Appendix offers a few comments about that approximation.)



                The black hole information paradox is especially paradoxical because the aforementioned approximation is expected to be adequate during most of the black hole's lifetime, but in the final moments when the approximation is expected to fail, there isn't enough of the black hole left to restore the necessary correlations. In one author's words [2]:




                The black hole information paradox forces us into a strange situation: we must find a way to break the semiclassical approximation in a domain where no quantum gravity effects would normally be expected.




                Like any paradox, this one will presumably be resolved after we learn how to formulate the problem properly. As noted in the Appendix, this requires using a theory of quantum gravity (but see the Edit at the end), and it is still an active area of current research.




                Appendix: The approximation used to derive Hawking radiation



                Hawking derived Hawking radiation using an approximation that considers the behavior of quantum fields in a prescribed spacetime background. (Most modern reviews derive it essentially the same way.) The prescribed background corresponds to the black hole formed by a collapsing star. This approximation violates the "conservation of energy," because the spacetime background affects the behavior of the quantum fields (leading to Hawking radiation), but the quantum fields don't affect the spacetime background. In particular, the black hole doesn't actually evaporate in this approximation, even though it does radiate. This is acknowledged in [3]:




                Hawking's original derivation... considered a quantum scalar field propagating on a fixed [aka prescribed], but dynamic, background space-time corresponding to the formation of a four-dimensional Schwarzschild black hole by the gravitational collapse of matter in asymptotically flat space.




                and in [4]:




                As word of his calculation began to spread, Hawking published a simplified version of it in Nature... However, even at this stage Hawking was not certain of the result and so expressed the title as a question, "Black hole explosions?" He noted that the calculation ignored the change in the metric due to the particles created and to quantum fluctuations.




                In reality, we expect the influence to go both ways, so that the black hole loses mass as it evaporates. We can (and Hawking did) try to account for the black hole's mass-loss in a kind of "semiclassical" approximation in which we artificially decrease the black hole's mass according to a kind of "average" amount of radiation that it has emitted so far; but that approximation is not self-consistent, as explained in a blog post by Luboš Motl [5].



                To really understand what happens when a black hole evaporates, we need to use a theory of quantum gravity. Heuristically, if the spacetime metric is influenced by quantum fields, which can form quantum superpositions, then the spacetime metric itself will be forced into quantum superpositions (very heuristically), so we need to use a theory of quantum gravity to really understand what's happening when a black hole evaporates. This is still an active area of research today.




                Edit: I forgot about this...



                In a comment, Dvij Mankad kindly reminded me of another line of research that calls into question the assertion that we need a full theory of quantum gravity to resolve the info-loss paradox. I'm not qualified to review that recent development myself, but it is reviewed in [6]. Here's an excerpt from section 1.4.5, where "IR" (infrared) is slang for "very long wavelength phenomena":




                Although I did not start this IR project with black holes in mind, as usual, all roads lead to black holes... The IR structure has important implications for the information paradox... This paradox is intertwined with the deep IR because an infinite number of soft gravitons and soft photons are produced in the process of black hole formation and evaporation. These soft particles carry information with a very low energy cost.





                References:



                [1] Marolf (2017), "The Black Hole information problem: past, present, and future," https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.02143



                [2] Mathur (2012), "Black Holes and Beyond," https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.0776



                [3] Kanti and Winstanley, (2014),“Hawking Radiation from Higher-Dimensional Black Holes,” https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3952



                [4] Page (2004), "Hawking Radiation and Black Hole Thermodynamics," https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409024



                [5] Luboš Motl (2012), "Why "semiclassical gravity" isn't self-consistent," https://motls.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-semiclassical-gravity-isnt-self.html



                [6] Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," http://arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$








                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago










                • $begingroup$
                  It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Wildcard
                  2 days ago















                24












                $begingroup$

                In classical physics, there is no black hole information loss paradox: the information is lost, and that's all there is to it. No paradox. (See Ben Crowell's answer.)



                The famous "black hole information loss paradox" comes from considering the behavior of quantum fields in the background spacetime of a black hole formed by a collapsing star. That analysis gives us a compelling reason to believe that a black hole eventually evaporates due to Hawking radiation. After it evaporates, presumably nothing is left — no event horizon, no singularity.



                The problem is to explain how the information about everything that fell into the black hole gets back out by the time the black hole is done evaporating. The seemingly-obvious answer is that it comes back out gradually via the Hawking radiation, just like information that was written on a piece of paper and then burned would be encoded (in a practically useless scrambled form) in the light, smoke, and atmospheric molecular motions that are produced by the burning process.



                Presumably the information eventually does come back out (in scrambled form) via the radiation, but the challenge is to explain how that happens. The naive analogy with a burning piece of paper doesn't work, at least not as far as we can tell using the standard approximation that was used to derive Hawking radiation in the first place. Luboš Motl's answer to the question



                Why isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?



                addresses this very briefly, and several reviews on arxiv.org address it in more depth. One example is [1], which says:




                conventional physics implies the Hawking effect to differ fundamentally from familiar thermal emission from hot objects like stars or burning wood.




                The difference (explained more carefully in [1]) is related to the fact that when we burn a piece of wood or paper, the original information ends up being stored in subtle correlations across the resulting light, smoke, atmospheric molecular motions, and so on; but for a black hole, because of the way Hawking radiation works, Hawking-radiation modes that were emitted at different times cannot be correlated with each other in that way, at least not within the approximation that is normally used to derive the radiation in the first place. (The Appendix offers a few comments about that approximation.)



                The black hole information paradox is especially paradoxical because the aforementioned approximation is expected to be adequate during most of the black hole's lifetime, but in the final moments when the approximation is expected to fail, there isn't enough of the black hole left to restore the necessary correlations. In one author's words [2]:




                The black hole information paradox forces us into a strange situation: we must find a way to break the semiclassical approximation in a domain where no quantum gravity effects would normally be expected.




                Like any paradox, this one will presumably be resolved after we learn how to formulate the problem properly. As noted in the Appendix, this requires using a theory of quantum gravity (but see the Edit at the end), and it is still an active area of current research.




                Appendix: The approximation used to derive Hawking radiation



                Hawking derived Hawking radiation using an approximation that considers the behavior of quantum fields in a prescribed spacetime background. (Most modern reviews derive it essentially the same way.) The prescribed background corresponds to the black hole formed by a collapsing star. This approximation violates the "conservation of energy," because the spacetime background affects the behavior of the quantum fields (leading to Hawking radiation), but the quantum fields don't affect the spacetime background. In particular, the black hole doesn't actually evaporate in this approximation, even though it does radiate. This is acknowledged in [3]:




                Hawking's original derivation... considered a quantum scalar field propagating on a fixed [aka prescribed], but dynamic, background space-time corresponding to the formation of a four-dimensional Schwarzschild black hole by the gravitational collapse of matter in asymptotically flat space.




                and in [4]:




                As word of his calculation began to spread, Hawking published a simplified version of it in Nature... However, even at this stage Hawking was not certain of the result and so expressed the title as a question, "Black hole explosions?" He noted that the calculation ignored the change in the metric due to the particles created and to quantum fluctuations.




                In reality, we expect the influence to go both ways, so that the black hole loses mass as it evaporates. We can (and Hawking did) try to account for the black hole's mass-loss in a kind of "semiclassical" approximation in which we artificially decrease the black hole's mass according to a kind of "average" amount of radiation that it has emitted so far; but that approximation is not self-consistent, as explained in a blog post by Luboš Motl [5].



                To really understand what happens when a black hole evaporates, we need to use a theory of quantum gravity. Heuristically, if the spacetime metric is influenced by quantum fields, which can form quantum superpositions, then the spacetime metric itself will be forced into quantum superpositions (very heuristically), so we need to use a theory of quantum gravity to really understand what's happening when a black hole evaporates. This is still an active area of research today.




                Edit: I forgot about this...



                In a comment, Dvij Mankad kindly reminded me of another line of research that calls into question the assertion that we need a full theory of quantum gravity to resolve the info-loss paradox. I'm not qualified to review that recent development myself, but it is reviewed in [6]. Here's an excerpt from section 1.4.5, where "IR" (infrared) is slang for "very long wavelength phenomena":




                Although I did not start this IR project with black holes in mind, as usual, all roads lead to black holes... The IR structure has important implications for the information paradox... This paradox is intertwined with the deep IR because an infinite number of soft gravitons and soft photons are produced in the process of black hole formation and evaporation. These soft particles carry information with a very low energy cost.





                References:



                [1] Marolf (2017), "The Black Hole information problem: past, present, and future," https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.02143



                [2] Mathur (2012), "Black Holes and Beyond," https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.0776



                [3] Kanti and Winstanley, (2014),“Hawking Radiation from Higher-Dimensional Black Holes,” https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3952



                [4] Page (2004), "Hawking Radiation and Black Hole Thermodynamics," https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409024



                [5] Luboš Motl (2012), "Why "semiclassical gravity" isn't self-consistent," https://motls.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-semiclassical-gravity-isnt-self.html



                [6] Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," http://arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$








                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago










                • $begingroup$
                  It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Wildcard
                  2 days ago













                24












                24








                24





                $begingroup$

                In classical physics, there is no black hole information loss paradox: the information is lost, and that's all there is to it. No paradox. (See Ben Crowell's answer.)



                The famous "black hole information loss paradox" comes from considering the behavior of quantum fields in the background spacetime of a black hole formed by a collapsing star. That analysis gives us a compelling reason to believe that a black hole eventually evaporates due to Hawking radiation. After it evaporates, presumably nothing is left — no event horizon, no singularity.



                The problem is to explain how the information about everything that fell into the black hole gets back out by the time the black hole is done evaporating. The seemingly-obvious answer is that it comes back out gradually via the Hawking radiation, just like information that was written on a piece of paper and then burned would be encoded (in a practically useless scrambled form) in the light, smoke, and atmospheric molecular motions that are produced by the burning process.



                Presumably the information eventually does come back out (in scrambled form) via the radiation, but the challenge is to explain how that happens. The naive analogy with a burning piece of paper doesn't work, at least not as far as we can tell using the standard approximation that was used to derive Hawking radiation in the first place. Luboš Motl's answer to the question



                Why isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?



                addresses this very briefly, and several reviews on arxiv.org address it in more depth. One example is [1], which says:




                conventional physics implies the Hawking effect to differ fundamentally from familiar thermal emission from hot objects like stars or burning wood.




                The difference (explained more carefully in [1]) is related to the fact that when we burn a piece of wood or paper, the original information ends up being stored in subtle correlations across the resulting light, smoke, atmospheric molecular motions, and so on; but for a black hole, because of the way Hawking radiation works, Hawking-radiation modes that were emitted at different times cannot be correlated with each other in that way, at least not within the approximation that is normally used to derive the radiation in the first place. (The Appendix offers a few comments about that approximation.)



                The black hole information paradox is especially paradoxical because the aforementioned approximation is expected to be adequate during most of the black hole's lifetime, but in the final moments when the approximation is expected to fail, there isn't enough of the black hole left to restore the necessary correlations. In one author's words [2]:




                The black hole information paradox forces us into a strange situation: we must find a way to break the semiclassical approximation in a domain where no quantum gravity effects would normally be expected.




                Like any paradox, this one will presumably be resolved after we learn how to formulate the problem properly. As noted in the Appendix, this requires using a theory of quantum gravity (but see the Edit at the end), and it is still an active area of current research.




                Appendix: The approximation used to derive Hawking radiation



                Hawking derived Hawking radiation using an approximation that considers the behavior of quantum fields in a prescribed spacetime background. (Most modern reviews derive it essentially the same way.) The prescribed background corresponds to the black hole formed by a collapsing star. This approximation violates the "conservation of energy," because the spacetime background affects the behavior of the quantum fields (leading to Hawking radiation), but the quantum fields don't affect the spacetime background. In particular, the black hole doesn't actually evaporate in this approximation, even though it does radiate. This is acknowledged in [3]:




                Hawking's original derivation... considered a quantum scalar field propagating on a fixed [aka prescribed], but dynamic, background space-time corresponding to the formation of a four-dimensional Schwarzschild black hole by the gravitational collapse of matter in asymptotically flat space.




                and in [4]:




                As word of his calculation began to spread, Hawking published a simplified version of it in Nature... However, even at this stage Hawking was not certain of the result and so expressed the title as a question, "Black hole explosions?" He noted that the calculation ignored the change in the metric due to the particles created and to quantum fluctuations.




                In reality, we expect the influence to go both ways, so that the black hole loses mass as it evaporates. We can (and Hawking did) try to account for the black hole's mass-loss in a kind of "semiclassical" approximation in which we artificially decrease the black hole's mass according to a kind of "average" amount of radiation that it has emitted so far; but that approximation is not self-consistent, as explained in a blog post by Luboš Motl [5].



                To really understand what happens when a black hole evaporates, we need to use a theory of quantum gravity. Heuristically, if the spacetime metric is influenced by quantum fields, which can form quantum superpositions, then the spacetime metric itself will be forced into quantum superpositions (very heuristically), so we need to use a theory of quantum gravity to really understand what's happening when a black hole evaporates. This is still an active area of research today.




                Edit: I forgot about this...



                In a comment, Dvij Mankad kindly reminded me of another line of research that calls into question the assertion that we need a full theory of quantum gravity to resolve the info-loss paradox. I'm not qualified to review that recent development myself, but it is reviewed in [6]. Here's an excerpt from section 1.4.5, where "IR" (infrared) is slang for "very long wavelength phenomena":




                Although I did not start this IR project with black holes in mind, as usual, all roads lead to black holes... The IR structure has important implications for the information paradox... This paradox is intertwined with the deep IR because an infinite number of soft gravitons and soft photons are produced in the process of black hole formation and evaporation. These soft particles carry information with a very low energy cost.





                References:



                [1] Marolf (2017), "The Black Hole information problem: past, present, and future," https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.02143



                [2] Mathur (2012), "Black Holes and Beyond," https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.0776



                [3] Kanti and Winstanley, (2014),“Hawking Radiation from Higher-Dimensional Black Holes,” https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3952



                [4] Page (2004), "Hawking Radiation and Black Hole Thermodynamics," https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409024



                [5] Luboš Motl (2012), "Why "semiclassical gravity" isn't self-consistent," https://motls.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-semiclassical-gravity-isnt-self.html



                [6] Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," http://arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                In classical physics, there is no black hole information loss paradox: the information is lost, and that's all there is to it. No paradox. (See Ben Crowell's answer.)



                The famous "black hole information loss paradox" comes from considering the behavior of quantum fields in the background spacetime of a black hole formed by a collapsing star. That analysis gives us a compelling reason to believe that a black hole eventually evaporates due to Hawking radiation. After it evaporates, presumably nothing is left — no event horizon, no singularity.



                The problem is to explain how the information about everything that fell into the black hole gets back out by the time the black hole is done evaporating. The seemingly-obvious answer is that it comes back out gradually via the Hawking radiation, just like information that was written on a piece of paper and then burned would be encoded (in a practically useless scrambled form) in the light, smoke, and atmospheric molecular motions that are produced by the burning process.



                Presumably the information eventually does come back out (in scrambled form) via the radiation, but the challenge is to explain how that happens. The naive analogy with a burning piece of paper doesn't work, at least not as far as we can tell using the standard approximation that was used to derive Hawking radiation in the first place. Luboš Motl's answer to the question



                Why isn't black hole information loss this easy (am I missing something basic)?



                addresses this very briefly, and several reviews on arxiv.org address it in more depth. One example is [1], which says:




                conventional physics implies the Hawking effect to differ fundamentally from familiar thermal emission from hot objects like stars or burning wood.




                The difference (explained more carefully in [1]) is related to the fact that when we burn a piece of wood or paper, the original information ends up being stored in subtle correlations across the resulting light, smoke, atmospheric molecular motions, and so on; but for a black hole, because of the way Hawking radiation works, Hawking-radiation modes that were emitted at different times cannot be correlated with each other in that way, at least not within the approximation that is normally used to derive the radiation in the first place. (The Appendix offers a few comments about that approximation.)



                The black hole information paradox is especially paradoxical because the aforementioned approximation is expected to be adequate during most of the black hole's lifetime, but in the final moments when the approximation is expected to fail, there isn't enough of the black hole left to restore the necessary correlations. In one author's words [2]:




                The black hole information paradox forces us into a strange situation: we must find a way to break the semiclassical approximation in a domain where no quantum gravity effects would normally be expected.




                Like any paradox, this one will presumably be resolved after we learn how to formulate the problem properly. As noted in the Appendix, this requires using a theory of quantum gravity (but see the Edit at the end), and it is still an active area of current research.




                Appendix: The approximation used to derive Hawking radiation



                Hawking derived Hawking radiation using an approximation that considers the behavior of quantum fields in a prescribed spacetime background. (Most modern reviews derive it essentially the same way.) The prescribed background corresponds to the black hole formed by a collapsing star. This approximation violates the "conservation of energy," because the spacetime background affects the behavior of the quantum fields (leading to Hawking radiation), but the quantum fields don't affect the spacetime background. In particular, the black hole doesn't actually evaporate in this approximation, even though it does radiate. This is acknowledged in [3]:




                Hawking's original derivation... considered a quantum scalar field propagating on a fixed [aka prescribed], but dynamic, background space-time corresponding to the formation of a four-dimensional Schwarzschild black hole by the gravitational collapse of matter in asymptotically flat space.




                and in [4]:




                As word of his calculation began to spread, Hawking published a simplified version of it in Nature... However, even at this stage Hawking was not certain of the result and so expressed the title as a question, "Black hole explosions?" He noted that the calculation ignored the change in the metric due to the particles created and to quantum fluctuations.




                In reality, we expect the influence to go both ways, so that the black hole loses mass as it evaporates. We can (and Hawking did) try to account for the black hole's mass-loss in a kind of "semiclassical" approximation in which we artificially decrease the black hole's mass according to a kind of "average" amount of radiation that it has emitted so far; but that approximation is not self-consistent, as explained in a blog post by Luboš Motl [5].



                To really understand what happens when a black hole evaporates, we need to use a theory of quantum gravity. Heuristically, if the spacetime metric is influenced by quantum fields, which can form quantum superpositions, then the spacetime metric itself will be forced into quantum superpositions (very heuristically), so we need to use a theory of quantum gravity to really understand what's happening when a black hole evaporates. This is still an active area of research today.




                Edit: I forgot about this...



                In a comment, Dvij Mankad kindly reminded me of another line of research that calls into question the assertion that we need a full theory of quantum gravity to resolve the info-loss paradox. I'm not qualified to review that recent development myself, but it is reviewed in [6]. Here's an excerpt from section 1.4.5, where "IR" (infrared) is slang for "very long wavelength phenomena":




                Although I did not start this IR project with black holes in mind, as usual, all roads lead to black holes... The IR structure has important implications for the information paradox... This paradox is intertwined with the deep IR because an infinite number of soft gravitons and soft photons are produced in the process of black hole formation and evaporation. These soft particles carry information with a very low energy cost.





                References:



                [1] Marolf (2017), "The Black Hole information problem: past, present, and future," https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.02143



                [2] Mathur (2012), "Black Holes and Beyond," https://arxiv.org/abs/1205.0776



                [3] Kanti and Winstanley, (2014),“Hawking Radiation from Higher-Dimensional Black Holes,” https://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3952



                [4] Page (2004), "Hawking Radiation and Black Hole Thermodynamics," https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409024



                [5] Luboš Motl (2012), "Why "semiclassical gravity" isn't self-consistent," https://motls.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-semiclassical-gravity-isnt-self.html



                [6] Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," http://arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited 2 days ago

























                answered 2 days ago









                Chiral AnomalyChiral Anomaly

                13.1k21644




                13.1k21644







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago










                • $begingroup$
                  It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Wildcard
                  2 days ago












                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Dvij Mankad
                  2 days ago







                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
                  $endgroup$
                  – Chiral Anomaly
                  2 days ago










                • $begingroup$
                  It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Wildcard
                  2 days ago







                1




                1




                $begingroup$
                "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
                $endgroup$
                – Dvij Mankad
                2 days ago





                $begingroup$
                "[T]his requires using a theory of quantum gravity, and it is still an active area of current research."--I agree that this is the most commonly held view but aren't some arguments (I heard them from people who study asymptotic symmetries) that actually the Information Paradox might be a purely IR paradox and can be resolved without needing the knowledge of a UV complete theory of gravity? PS: Thank you for the excellent answer by the way! :-)
                $endgroup$
                – Dvij Mankad
                2 days ago





                1




                1




                $begingroup$
                Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
                $endgroup$
                – Dvij Mankad
                2 days ago





                $begingroup$
                Also, Ben's answer seems to suggest that actually there is an information loss issue even in classical GR as the infalling particles will be "destroyed" in finite proper time. I usually think that we simply shouldn't think about what happens at the singularity in GR because it is simply an inconsistency of the theory and we cannot really say what happens at the singularity. But if we do take GR at the face value and suggest that particles simply get destroyed into nothingness at the singularity then there does seem to be a loss of unitarity even in GR, right?
                $endgroup$
                – Dvij Mankad
                2 days ago





                1




                1




                $begingroup$
                @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
                $endgroup$
                – Chiral Anomaly
                2 days ago




                $begingroup$
                @DvijMankad You're right about the IR thing -- I forgot about that when writing this answer, probably because I don't understand it very well yet. What I think you're talking about is nicely reviewed in Strominger (2017), "Lectures on the Infrared Structure of Gravity and Gauge Theory," arxiv.org/abs/1703.05448. It involves recent insights related to the BMS group, which is still on my to-do list to learn.
                $endgroup$
                – Chiral Anomaly
                2 days ago




                1




                1




                $begingroup$
                @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
                $endgroup$
                – Chiral Anomaly
                2 days ago




                $begingroup$
                @DvijMankad I would put the classical version of information loss (because it hits the singularity) in the same category as the singularity itself -- not a paradox per se, but just a sign that classical GR is incomplete. In other words, the problem occurs where we expect a problem to occur. But in the famous info loss paradox, the problem occurs where we don't expect a problem to occur. Granted, the fact that I totally forgot about the IR issue puts a dent in my credibility on this subject... I'm going to bump that item closer to the top of my to-do list right now. Thanks for the reminder!
                $endgroup$
                – Chiral Anomaly
                2 days ago












                $begingroup$
                It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
                $endgroup$
                – Wildcard
                2 days ago




                $begingroup$
                It seems to me (in my ignorance) that this “paradox” sounds much like the ancients scoffing at the idea of a round planet, because the people at the bottom would fall off. When the whole paradox is built on assumptions from theoretical physics, I find it difficult to take the assumptions entirely seriously.
                $endgroup$
                – Wildcard
                2 days ago











                5












                $begingroup$

                You are correct. Information is not lost when it gets into the black hole, it appears to be lost when that black hole subsequently evaporates via the Hawking radiation. If that radiation is fully thermal, then it cannot contain any of the information from the inside of the black hole, so when there is no black hole left one can ask, where did the information go?



                For an informal overview of the paradox and its proposed solutions, have a look at this blogpost. Though it is more than 10 years old, it is a good place to start.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$

















                  5












                  $begingroup$

                  You are correct. Information is not lost when it gets into the black hole, it appears to be lost when that black hole subsequently evaporates via the Hawking radiation. If that radiation is fully thermal, then it cannot contain any of the information from the inside of the black hole, so when there is no black hole left one can ask, where did the information go?



                  For an informal overview of the paradox and its proposed solutions, have a look at this blogpost. Though it is more than 10 years old, it is a good place to start.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$















                    5












                    5








                    5





                    $begingroup$

                    You are correct. Information is not lost when it gets into the black hole, it appears to be lost when that black hole subsequently evaporates via the Hawking radiation. If that radiation is fully thermal, then it cannot contain any of the information from the inside of the black hole, so when there is no black hole left one can ask, where did the information go?



                    For an informal overview of the paradox and its proposed solutions, have a look at this blogpost. Though it is more than 10 years old, it is a good place to start.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    You are correct. Information is not lost when it gets into the black hole, it appears to be lost when that black hole subsequently evaporates via the Hawking radiation. If that radiation is fully thermal, then it cannot contain any of the information from the inside of the black hole, so when there is no black hole left one can ask, where did the information go?



                    For an informal overview of the paradox and its proposed solutions, have a look at this blogpost. Though it is more than 10 years old, it is a good place to start.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered 2 days ago









                    A.V.S.A.V.S.

                    4,4391622




                    4,4391622





















                        5












                        $begingroup$

                        The full black hole information paradox is a paradox that involves not just classical physics but also the semiclassical physics of black hole evaporation. But this question is posed completely in the language of classical physics, so it has a classical answer. Once information (say in the form of particles) enters the event horizon of a black hole, it can exist for only a finite proper time before it hits the singularity. In the context of classical GR, all we can really say is that hitting the singularity means that the information is destroyed. Even if you dive in to the black hole in an effort to retrieve the information, you will only succeed if you do it soon enough.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$

















                          5












                          $begingroup$

                          The full black hole information paradox is a paradox that involves not just classical physics but also the semiclassical physics of black hole evaporation. But this question is posed completely in the language of classical physics, so it has a classical answer. Once information (say in the form of particles) enters the event horizon of a black hole, it can exist for only a finite proper time before it hits the singularity. In the context of classical GR, all we can really say is that hitting the singularity means that the information is destroyed. Even if you dive in to the black hole in an effort to retrieve the information, you will only succeed if you do it soon enough.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$















                            5












                            5








                            5





                            $begingroup$

                            The full black hole information paradox is a paradox that involves not just classical physics but also the semiclassical physics of black hole evaporation. But this question is posed completely in the language of classical physics, so it has a classical answer. Once information (say in the form of particles) enters the event horizon of a black hole, it can exist for only a finite proper time before it hits the singularity. In the context of classical GR, all we can really say is that hitting the singularity means that the information is destroyed. Even if you dive in to the black hole in an effort to retrieve the information, you will only succeed if you do it soon enough.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            The full black hole information paradox is a paradox that involves not just classical physics but also the semiclassical physics of black hole evaporation. But this question is posed completely in the language of classical physics, so it has a classical answer. Once information (say in the form of particles) enters the event horizon of a black hole, it can exist for only a finite proper time before it hits the singularity. In the context of classical GR, all we can really say is that hitting the singularity means that the information is destroyed. Even if you dive in to the black hole in an effort to retrieve the information, you will only succeed if you do it soon enough.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered 2 days ago









                            Ben CrowellBen Crowell

                            53.6k6165313




                            53.6k6165313





















                                0












                                $begingroup$

                                In layman's terms if information is considered "lost" that implies that one believes they could not reverse-engineer what exactly went in to the black hole.



                                Why? Because if you can figure out all of the math involved in all equations then you could take the real-time math problem that is existence and reverse calculate what has already happened which in effect would allow you to become partially aware of what will happen.



                                In example is a comet passes Earth it is not "random" as random is super-natural (e.g. not possible). Given enough energy, resources, technology, time, etc we could ultimately back-trace where that comet originally came from prior to entering our Solar system. So long as the prerequisites are provided at each desired step we could continue to back-trace it's origins far before the point a given object could be referenced in a singular form (e.g. decillions of atoms spread across unfathomable amounts of space which eventually formed that given comet).



                                Since we as a species are new-borns technologically-speaking we are utterly ignorant about how we might deconstruct the physical properties of a black hole. Does material simply stick to the outer-most point like a magnet to the surface of a refrigerator and remain in place moving only as the black hole occasionally evaporates or is the interior of a black hole like water where (what are ultimately waves) moving around or something we would currently consider exotic?



                                When waves are sucked in to a black hole we may want to consider if there is any meaningful (in spite of the incredibly small proportions) difference between one wave or another? The other consideration for the possibility of dynamic or "fluid" internal structure (which would complicate information being reverse-engineered) is what effects that the intense conditions may create under the various laws of existence (thermodynamics, physics) that we are not aware of in more traditional and familiar conditions? In example waves heat up as they get sucked around a black hole, does the gravity automatically negate the vibrations of the waves once they are part of the black hole? Would they be considered "almost immeasurable" by what we could now consider utterly exotic levels of technology that we millions of years from now (or other species currently) possess?



                                Since there is no such thing as random all things are technically predictable since existence is ultimately just a real-time math problem (that so happens to be wildly convoluted). There likely may be a point in our specicie's technological evolution where a more sophisticated problem may exist yet we are not yet aware of the phenomenon to be able to consider that given challenge.






                                share|cite|improve this answer








                                New contributor




                                John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                $endgroup$

















                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  In layman's terms if information is considered "lost" that implies that one believes they could not reverse-engineer what exactly went in to the black hole.



                                  Why? Because if you can figure out all of the math involved in all equations then you could take the real-time math problem that is existence and reverse calculate what has already happened which in effect would allow you to become partially aware of what will happen.



                                  In example is a comet passes Earth it is not "random" as random is super-natural (e.g. not possible). Given enough energy, resources, technology, time, etc we could ultimately back-trace where that comet originally came from prior to entering our Solar system. So long as the prerequisites are provided at each desired step we could continue to back-trace it's origins far before the point a given object could be referenced in a singular form (e.g. decillions of atoms spread across unfathomable amounts of space which eventually formed that given comet).



                                  Since we as a species are new-borns technologically-speaking we are utterly ignorant about how we might deconstruct the physical properties of a black hole. Does material simply stick to the outer-most point like a magnet to the surface of a refrigerator and remain in place moving only as the black hole occasionally evaporates or is the interior of a black hole like water where (what are ultimately waves) moving around or something we would currently consider exotic?



                                  When waves are sucked in to a black hole we may want to consider if there is any meaningful (in spite of the incredibly small proportions) difference between one wave or another? The other consideration for the possibility of dynamic or "fluid" internal structure (which would complicate information being reverse-engineered) is what effects that the intense conditions may create under the various laws of existence (thermodynamics, physics) that we are not aware of in more traditional and familiar conditions? In example waves heat up as they get sucked around a black hole, does the gravity automatically negate the vibrations of the waves once they are part of the black hole? Would they be considered "almost immeasurable" by what we could now consider utterly exotic levels of technology that we millions of years from now (or other species currently) possess?



                                  Since there is no such thing as random all things are technically predictable since existence is ultimately just a real-time math problem (that so happens to be wildly convoluted). There likely may be a point in our specicie's technological evolution where a more sophisticated problem may exist yet we are not yet aware of the phenomenon to be able to consider that given challenge.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                  New contributor




                                  John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                  Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                  $endgroup$















                                    0












                                    0








                                    0





                                    $begingroup$

                                    In layman's terms if information is considered "lost" that implies that one believes they could not reverse-engineer what exactly went in to the black hole.



                                    Why? Because if you can figure out all of the math involved in all equations then you could take the real-time math problem that is existence and reverse calculate what has already happened which in effect would allow you to become partially aware of what will happen.



                                    In example is a comet passes Earth it is not "random" as random is super-natural (e.g. not possible). Given enough energy, resources, technology, time, etc we could ultimately back-trace where that comet originally came from prior to entering our Solar system. So long as the prerequisites are provided at each desired step we could continue to back-trace it's origins far before the point a given object could be referenced in a singular form (e.g. decillions of atoms spread across unfathomable amounts of space which eventually formed that given comet).



                                    Since we as a species are new-borns technologically-speaking we are utterly ignorant about how we might deconstruct the physical properties of a black hole. Does material simply stick to the outer-most point like a magnet to the surface of a refrigerator and remain in place moving only as the black hole occasionally evaporates or is the interior of a black hole like water where (what are ultimately waves) moving around or something we would currently consider exotic?



                                    When waves are sucked in to a black hole we may want to consider if there is any meaningful (in spite of the incredibly small proportions) difference between one wave or another? The other consideration for the possibility of dynamic or "fluid" internal structure (which would complicate information being reverse-engineered) is what effects that the intense conditions may create under the various laws of existence (thermodynamics, physics) that we are not aware of in more traditional and familiar conditions? In example waves heat up as they get sucked around a black hole, does the gravity automatically negate the vibrations of the waves once they are part of the black hole? Would they be considered "almost immeasurable" by what we could now consider utterly exotic levels of technology that we millions of years from now (or other species currently) possess?



                                    Since there is no such thing as random all things are technically predictable since existence is ultimately just a real-time math problem (that so happens to be wildly convoluted). There likely may be a point in our specicie's technological evolution where a more sophisticated problem may exist yet we are not yet aware of the phenomenon to be able to consider that given challenge.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer








                                    New contributor




                                    John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                    $endgroup$



                                    In layman's terms if information is considered "lost" that implies that one believes they could not reverse-engineer what exactly went in to the black hole.



                                    Why? Because if you can figure out all of the math involved in all equations then you could take the real-time math problem that is existence and reverse calculate what has already happened which in effect would allow you to become partially aware of what will happen.



                                    In example is a comet passes Earth it is not "random" as random is super-natural (e.g. not possible). Given enough energy, resources, technology, time, etc we could ultimately back-trace where that comet originally came from prior to entering our Solar system. So long as the prerequisites are provided at each desired step we could continue to back-trace it's origins far before the point a given object could be referenced in a singular form (e.g. decillions of atoms spread across unfathomable amounts of space which eventually formed that given comet).



                                    Since we as a species are new-borns technologically-speaking we are utterly ignorant about how we might deconstruct the physical properties of a black hole. Does material simply stick to the outer-most point like a magnet to the surface of a refrigerator and remain in place moving only as the black hole occasionally evaporates or is the interior of a black hole like water where (what are ultimately waves) moving around or something we would currently consider exotic?



                                    When waves are sucked in to a black hole we may want to consider if there is any meaningful (in spite of the incredibly small proportions) difference between one wave or another? The other consideration for the possibility of dynamic or "fluid" internal structure (which would complicate information being reverse-engineered) is what effects that the intense conditions may create under the various laws of existence (thermodynamics, physics) that we are not aware of in more traditional and familiar conditions? In example waves heat up as they get sucked around a black hole, does the gravity automatically negate the vibrations of the waves once they are part of the black hole? Would they be considered "almost immeasurable" by what we could now consider utterly exotic levels of technology that we millions of years from now (or other species currently) possess?



                                    Since there is no such thing as random all things are technically predictable since existence is ultimately just a real-time math problem (that so happens to be wildly convoluted). There likely may be a point in our specicie's technological evolution where a more sophisticated problem may exist yet we are not yet aware of the phenomenon to be able to consider that given challenge.







                                    share|cite|improve this answer








                                    New contributor




                                    John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                    share|cite|improve this answer






                                    New contributor




                                    John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                    answered 2 days ago









                                    JohnJohn

                                    1011




                                    1011




                                    New contributor




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                                    John is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                        대한민국 목차 국명 지리 역사 정치 국방 경제 사회 문화 국제 순위 관련 항목 각주 외부 링크 둘러보기 메뉴북위 37° 34′ 08″ 동경 126° 58′ 36″ / 북위 37.568889° 동경 126.976667°  / 37.568889; 126.976667ehThe Korean Repository문단을 편집문단을 편집추가해Clarkson PLC 사Report for Selected Countries and Subjects-Korea“Human Development Index and its components: P.198”“http://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C%EB%AF%BC%EA%B5%AD%EA%B5%AD%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95”"한국은 국제법상 한반도 유일 합법정부 아니다" - 오마이뉴스 모바일Report for Selected Countries and Subjects: South Korea격동의 역사와 함께한 조선일보 90년 : 조선일보 인수해 혁신시킨 신석우, 임시정부 때는 '대한민국' 국호(國號) 정해《우리가 몰랐던 우리 역사: 나라 이름의 비밀을 찾아가는 역사 여행》“남북 공식호칭 ‘남한’‘북한’으로 쓴다”“Corea 대 Korea, 누가 이긴 거야?”국내기후자료 - 한국[김대중 前 대통령 서거] 과감한 구조개혁 'DJ노믹스'로 최단기간 환란극복 :: 네이버 뉴스“이라크 "韓-쿠르드 유전개발 MOU 승인 안해"(종합)”“해외 우리국민 추방사례 43%가 일본”차기전차 K2'흑표'의 세계 최고 전력 분석, 쿠키뉴스 엄기영, 2007-03-02두산인프라, 헬기잡는 장갑차 'K21'...내년부터 공급, 고뉴스 이대준, 2008-10-30과거 내용 찾기mk 뉴스 - 구매력 기준으로 보면 한국 1인당 소득 3만弗과거 내용 찾기"The N-11: More Than an Acronym"Archived조선일보 최우석, 2008-11-01Global 500 2008: Countries - South Korea“몇년째 '시한폭탄'... 가계부채, 올해는 터질까”가구당 부채 5000만원 처음 넘어서“‘빚’으로 내몰리는 사회.. 위기의 가계대출”“[경제365] 공공부문 부채 급증…800조 육박”“"소득 양극화 다소 완화...불평등은 여전"”“공정사회·공생발전 한참 멀었네”iSuppli,08年2QのDRAMシェア・ランキングを発表(08/8/11)South Korea dominates shipbuilding industry | Stock Market News & Stocks to Watch from StraightStocks한국 자동차 생산, 3년 연속 세계 5위자동차수출 '현대-삼성 웃고 기아-대우-쌍용은 울고' 과거 내용 찾기동반성장위 창립 1주년 맞아Archived"중기적합 3개업종 합의 무시한 채 선정"李대통령, 사업 무분별 확장 소상공인 생계 위협 질타삼성-LG, 서민업종인 빵·분식사업 잇따라 철수상생은 뒷전…SSM ‘몸집 불리기’ 혈안Archived“경부고속도에 '아시안하이웨이' 표지판”'철의 실크로드' 앞서 '말(言)의 실크로드'부터, 프레시안 정창현, 2008-10-01“'서울 지하철은 안전한가?'”“서울시 “올해 안에 모든 지하철역 스크린도어 설치””“부산지하철 1,2호선 승강장 안전펜스 설치 완료”“전교조, 정부 노조 통계서 처음 빠져”“[Weekly BIZ] 도요타 '제로 이사회'가 리콜 사태 불러들였다”“S Korea slams high tuition costs”““정치가 여론 양극화 부채질… 합리주의 절실””“〈"`촛불집회'는 민주주의의 질적 변화 상징"〉”““촛불집회가 민주주의 왜곡 초래””“국민 65%, "한국 노사관계 대립적"”“한국 국가경쟁력 27위‥노사관계 '꼴찌'”“제대로 형성되지 않은 대한민국 이념지형”“[신년기획-갈등의 시대] 갈등지수 OECD 4위…사회적 손실 GDP 27% 무려 300조”“2012 총선-대선의 키워드는 '국민과 소통'”“한국 삶의 질 27위, 2000년과 2008년 연속 하위권 머물러”“[해피 코리아] 행복점수 68점…해외 평가선 '낙제점'”“한국 어린이·청소년 행복지수 3년 연속 OECD ‘꼴찌’”“한국 이혼율 OECD중 8위”“[통계청] 한국 이혼율 OECD 4위”“오피니언 [이렇게 생각한다] `부부의 날` 에 돌아본 이혼율 1위 한국”“Suicide Rates by Country, Global Health Observatory Data Repository.”“1. 또 다른 차별”“오피니언 [편집자에게] '왕따'와 '패거리 정치' 심리는 닮은꼴”“[미래한국리포트] 무한경쟁에 빠진 대한민국”“대학생 98% "외모가 경쟁력이라는 말 동의"”“특급호텔 웨딩·200만원대 유모차… "남보다 더…" 호화病, 고질병 됐다”“[스트레스 공화국] ① 경쟁사회, 스트레스 쌓인다”““매일 30여명 자살 한국, 의사보다 무속인에…””“"자살 부르는 '우울증', 환자 중 85% 치료 안 받아"”“정신병원을 가다”“대한민국도 ‘묻지마 범죄’,안전지대 아니다”“유엔 "학생 '성적 지향'에 따른 차별 금지하라"”“유엔아동권리위원회 보고서 및 번역본 원문”“고졸 성공스토리 담은 '제빵왕 김탁구' 드라마 나온다”“‘빛 좋은 개살구’ 고졸 취업…실습 대신 착취”원본 문서“정신건강, 사회적 편견부터 고쳐드립니다”‘소통’과 ‘행복’에 목 마른 사회가 잠들어 있던 ‘심리학’ 깨웠다“[포토] 사유리-곽금주 교수의 유쾌한 심리상담”“"올해 한국인 평균 영화관람횟수 세계 1위"(종합)”“[게임연중기획] 게임은 문화다-여가활동 1순위 게임”“영화속 ‘영어 지상주의’ …“왠지 씁쓸한데””“2월 `신문 부수 인증기관` 지정..방송법 후속작업”“무료신문 성장동력 ‘차별성’과 ‘갈등해소’”대한민국 국회 법률지식정보시스템"Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project: South Korea"“amp;vwcd=MT_ZTITLE&path=인구·가구%20>%20인구총조사%20>%20인구부문%20>%20 총조사인구(2005)%20>%20전수부문&oper_YN=Y&item=&keyword=종교별%20인구& amp;lang_mode=kor&list_id= 2005년 통계청 인구 총조사”원본 문서“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2009)”“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2014)”Archived“한국, `부분적 언론자유국' 강등〈프리덤하우스〉”“국경없는기자회 "한국, 인터넷감시 대상국"”“한국, 조선산업 1위 유지(S. Korea Stays Top Shipbuilding Nation) RZD-Partner Portal”원본 문서“한국, 4년 만에 ‘선박건조 1위’”“옛 마산시,인터넷속도 세계 1위”“"한국 초고속 인터넷망 세계1위"”“인터넷·휴대폰 요금, 외국보다 훨씬 비싸”“한국 관세행정 6년 연속 세계 '1위'”“한국 교통사고 사망자 수 OECD 회원국 중 2위”“결핵 후진국' 한국, 환자가 급증한 이유는”“수술은 신중해야… 자칫하면 생명 위협”대한민국분류대한민국의 지도대한민국 정부대표 다국어포털대한민국 전자정부대한민국 국회한국방송공사about korea and information korea브리태니커 백과사전(한국편)론리플래닛의 정보(한국편)CIA의 세계 정보(한국편)마리암 부디아 (Mariam Budia),『한국: 하늘이 내린 한 폭의 그림』, 서울: 트랜스라틴 19호 (2012년 3월)대한민국ehehehehehehehehehehehehehehWorldCat132441370n791268020000 0001 2308 81034078029-6026373548cb11863345f(데이터)00573706ge128495