Concerning the definitions of the enthalpy, the Helmholtz free energy and the Gibbs free energy of a systemWhy is the Gibbs Free Energy $F-HM$?Gibbs free energy and maximum workHelmholtz Free Energy vs Gibbs Free Energy in Landau TheoryGibbs' free energy and Helmholtz free energyHow could chemical potential be interpreted as the molar Gibbs free energy?Gibbs Free Energy of Two concurring PhasesHelmholtz Free Energy at EquilibriumPhysical Significance of $U$ (Internal Energy ) , $H$ (Enthalpy) , $F$ (Free Energy) and $G$ (Gibbs Free Energy)?Gibbs free energy the 3 equation confusionIs Entropy a monotonically increasing function of Gibbs Free Energy/ Helmholtz free energy/ Enthalpy?

Doing something right before you need it - expression for this?

Is it unprofessional to ask if a job posting on GlassDoor is real?

I Accidentally Deleted a Stock Terminal Theme

Blender 2.8 I can't see vertices, edges or faces in edit mode

What's the difference between 'rename' and 'mv'?

Should I tell management that I intend to leave due to bad software development practices?

Took a trip to a parallel universe, need help deciphering

How can I make my BBEG immortal short of making them a Lich or Vampire?

Is "remove commented out code" correct English?

I would say: "You are another teacher", but she is a woman and I am a man

Alternative to sending password over mail?

Western buddy movie with a supernatural twist where a woman turns into an eagle at the end

Is there a hemisphere-neutral way of specifying a season?

How could indestructible materials be used in power generation?

Why is it a bad idea to hire a hitman to eliminate most corrupt politicians?

How do conventional missiles fly?

SSH "lag" in LAN on some machines, mixed distros

Arrow those variables!

Memorizing the Keyboard

Infinite Abelian subgroup of infinite non Abelian group example

Neighboring nodes in the network

Theorems that impeded progress

Intersection of two sorted vectors in C++

Emailing HOD to enhance faculty application



Concerning the definitions of the enthalpy, the Helmholtz free energy and the Gibbs free energy of a system


Why is the Gibbs Free Energy $F-HM$?Gibbs free energy and maximum workHelmholtz Free Energy vs Gibbs Free Energy in Landau TheoryGibbs' free energy and Helmholtz free energyHow could chemical potential be interpreted as the molar Gibbs free energy?Gibbs Free Energy of Two concurring PhasesHelmholtz Free Energy at EquilibriumPhysical Significance of $U$ (Internal Energy ) , $H$ (Enthalpy) , $F$ (Free Energy) and $G$ (Gibbs Free Energy)?Gibbs free energy the 3 equation confusionIs Entropy a monotonically increasing function of Gibbs Free Energy/ Helmholtz free energy/ Enthalpy?













6












$begingroup$


The definition of enthalpy, $$H = U + PV,$$ assumes that the system is in a constant-pressure environment. Similarly, the definition of the Helmholtz free energy of the system, $$F = U - TS,$$ assumes a constant-temperature environment. The definition of the Gibbs free energy, $$G = U + PV - TS,$$ takes for granted both of the aformentioned assumptions. Does this mean, for example, that the enthalpy of a system is undefined for a system with a volume-dependent environmental pressure? I have similar questions about the Helmholtz free energy and the Gibbs free energy.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I can understand where your puzzle comes from. Some textbook (such as Schroeder's book, section 5.1), for the convenience of presenting, uses phrases like constant pressure or constant temperature. But it doesn't exclude other conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – user115350
    2 days ago















6












$begingroup$


The definition of enthalpy, $$H = U + PV,$$ assumes that the system is in a constant-pressure environment. Similarly, the definition of the Helmholtz free energy of the system, $$F = U - TS,$$ assumes a constant-temperature environment. The definition of the Gibbs free energy, $$G = U + PV - TS,$$ takes for granted both of the aformentioned assumptions. Does this mean, for example, that the enthalpy of a system is undefined for a system with a volume-dependent environmental pressure? I have similar questions about the Helmholtz free energy and the Gibbs free energy.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I can understand where your puzzle comes from. Some textbook (such as Schroeder's book, section 5.1), for the convenience of presenting, uses phrases like constant pressure or constant temperature. But it doesn't exclude other conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – user115350
    2 days ago













6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


The definition of enthalpy, $$H = U + PV,$$ assumes that the system is in a constant-pressure environment. Similarly, the definition of the Helmholtz free energy of the system, $$F = U - TS,$$ assumes a constant-temperature environment. The definition of the Gibbs free energy, $$G = U + PV - TS,$$ takes for granted both of the aformentioned assumptions. Does this mean, for example, that the enthalpy of a system is undefined for a system with a volume-dependent environmental pressure? I have similar questions about the Helmholtz free energy and the Gibbs free energy.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




The definition of enthalpy, $$H = U + PV,$$ assumes that the system is in a constant-pressure environment. Similarly, the definition of the Helmholtz free energy of the system, $$F = U - TS,$$ assumes a constant-temperature environment. The definition of the Gibbs free energy, $$G = U + PV - TS,$$ takes for granted both of the aformentioned assumptions. Does this mean, for example, that the enthalpy of a system is undefined for a system with a volume-dependent environmental pressure? I have similar questions about the Helmholtz free energy and the Gibbs free energy.







thermodynamics






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 2 days ago







PiKindOfGuy

















asked 2 days ago









PiKindOfGuyPiKindOfGuy

701624




701624







  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I can understand where your puzzle comes from. Some textbook (such as Schroeder's book, section 5.1), for the convenience of presenting, uses phrases like constant pressure or constant temperature. But it doesn't exclude other conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – user115350
    2 days ago












  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I can understand where your puzzle comes from. Some textbook (such as Schroeder's book, section 5.1), for the convenience of presenting, uses phrases like constant pressure or constant temperature. But it doesn't exclude other conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – user115350
    2 days ago







2




2




$begingroup$
I can understand where your puzzle comes from. Some textbook (such as Schroeder's book, section 5.1), for the convenience of presenting, uses phrases like constant pressure or constant temperature. But it doesn't exclude other conditions.
$endgroup$
– user115350
2 days ago




$begingroup$
I can understand where your puzzle comes from. Some textbook (such as Schroeder's book, section 5.1), for the convenience of presenting, uses phrases like constant pressure or constant temperature. But it doesn't exclude other conditions.
$endgroup$
– user115350
2 days ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















7












$begingroup$

Those are the definitions of each. They don't assume anything about the system and can always be applied. You are getting mixed up with the scenarios in which they are usually applied since nice things happen. For example, for a system at constant pressure (and number of particles) $Delta H=Q$, where $Q$ is the heat that enters or leaves the system.



To add some more detail, this can be seen by substituting in the thermodynamic identity
$$text dU=Ttext dS-Ptext dV+mutext d N$$
into the differential of one of your thermodynamic potentials. For example, as mentioned above we have
$$text dH=text dU+Ptext dV+Vtext dP$$
so then
$$text dH=Ttext dS+Vtext dP+mutext dN$$
i.e. at constant pressure and number of particles $text dH=Ttext dS=text dQ$



You also say that the Gibbs free energy takes both mentioned assumptions "for granted", but see what happens if you do this process with the Gibbs free energy at constant temperature and pressure. It is a very important relation.



These processes are more generally called Legendre transformations






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
    $endgroup$
    – PiKindOfGuy
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
    $endgroup$
    – Aaron Stevens
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
    $endgroup$
    – PiKindOfGuy
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
    $endgroup$
    – Aaron Stevens
    yesterday










  • $begingroup$
    @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
    $endgroup$
    – Aaron Stevens
    10 hours ago



















0












$begingroup$

I agree with @Aaron Stevens. There are no built in assumptions of constant pressure or temperature in these definitions.



The Hemlholtz free energy, Gibbs free energy, Enthalpy and Internal Energy are sometimes referred to as thermodynamic potentials. For a discussion of these check out



http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/helmholtz.html



Hope this helps.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    It is important to keep separate definitions of thermodynamic potentials (TP) from the specific cases where one particular TP is more convenient than others.



    Let me use the Gibbs free energy $G$ as an example (the cases of Helmholtz free energy and enthalpy can be obtained by a parallel discussion).



    Let's start from the fact that the most convenient way of representing the internal energy $U$ of a fluid system as a function of the thermodynamic state is to use as independent variables the entropy $S$, the volume $V$ and the number of particles $N$. Such a choice does not imply any constraint on the system and in principle it is possible to use thermodynamic relations to express the same value of the internal energy as a function of different state variables (say $T$ and/or $P$). However, it turns out that only the description in terms of the set $S,V,T$ allows to encode the full thermodynamic behavior in one function of three variables. From this "privileged" choice of variables one can derive other descriptions using different state variables, but it is not possible to go the other way around. For instance, knowing $U(T,V,N)$ does not allow to reconstruct $U(S,V,N)$ (this is discussed in detail in Callen's textbook on Thermodynamics).



    The right way to change the independent variables while keeping the same information about the system as contained in $U(S,V,N)$ is to perform a Legendre transform (better a Legendre-Fenchel transform, due to the possibility of discontinuity of first derivatives).
    Legendre(-Fenchel) transforms of the internal energy are the so-called thermodynamic potentials.



    The Legendre transform to obtain the Gibbs free energy is briefly indicated as
    $$
    G = U -TS +PV
    $$

    Actually, the precise meaning of the above expression is that one starts with $U(S,V,N)$ and then $G$ is defined as
    $$
    G(T,P,N) = inf_S,V ( U(S,V,N) - TS + PV )
    $$

    Therefore, at level of definition, $T$ and $P$ are fixed just in the sense that one has to fix the values of the independent variables to identify the point where the function is evaluated. $T$ and $P$ can be changed at will and correspondingly one finds a value for $G$. Once one is using $T,P,N$ as independent variables, this does not imply that the conjugate variables $S,V,mu$ are not definite or do not have a precise value. Their values are fixed by the function $G$ and can be obtained by the relations
    $$S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N,~~~~
    V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N, ~~~~
    mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P.$$



    After introducing thermodynamic potentials with their natural variables ($T,P,N$ for $G$), since the differential of each thermodynamic potentials is obviously a sum of therms multiplying the differential of the independent variables, in the case of $G$
    $$
    dG = -SdT + VdP + mu dN
    $$

    where $S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N$,
    $V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N$ and
    $mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P$.



    Therefore, in the case of a transformation keeping constant some of the variables $T,P,N$ one gets a simplified formula with respect to the full differential.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      );
      );
      , "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function()
      var channelOptions =
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "151"
      ;
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
      createEditor();
      );

      else
      createEditor();

      );

      function createEditor()
      StackExchange.prepareEditor(
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: false,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: null,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader:
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      ,
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      );



      );













      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function ()
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f470053%2fconcerning-the-definitions-of-the-enthalpy-the-helmholtz-free-energy-and-the-gi%23new-answer', 'question_page');

      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      7












      $begingroup$

      Those are the definitions of each. They don't assume anything about the system and can always be applied. You are getting mixed up with the scenarios in which they are usually applied since nice things happen. For example, for a system at constant pressure (and number of particles) $Delta H=Q$, where $Q$ is the heat that enters or leaves the system.



      To add some more detail, this can be seen by substituting in the thermodynamic identity
      $$text dU=Ttext dS-Ptext dV+mutext d N$$
      into the differential of one of your thermodynamic potentials. For example, as mentioned above we have
      $$text dH=text dU+Ptext dV+Vtext dP$$
      so then
      $$text dH=Ttext dS+Vtext dP+mutext dN$$
      i.e. at constant pressure and number of particles $text dH=Ttext dS=text dQ$



      You also say that the Gibbs free energy takes both mentioned assumptions "for granted", but see what happens if you do this process with the Gibbs free energy at constant temperature and pressure. It is a very important relation.



      These processes are more generally called Legendre transformations






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        10 hours ago
















      7












      $begingroup$

      Those are the definitions of each. They don't assume anything about the system and can always be applied. You are getting mixed up with the scenarios in which they are usually applied since nice things happen. For example, for a system at constant pressure (and number of particles) $Delta H=Q$, where $Q$ is the heat that enters or leaves the system.



      To add some more detail, this can be seen by substituting in the thermodynamic identity
      $$text dU=Ttext dS-Ptext dV+mutext d N$$
      into the differential of one of your thermodynamic potentials. For example, as mentioned above we have
      $$text dH=text dU+Ptext dV+Vtext dP$$
      so then
      $$text dH=Ttext dS+Vtext dP+mutext dN$$
      i.e. at constant pressure and number of particles $text dH=Ttext dS=text dQ$



      You also say that the Gibbs free energy takes both mentioned assumptions "for granted", but see what happens if you do this process with the Gibbs free energy at constant temperature and pressure. It is a very important relation.



      These processes are more generally called Legendre transformations






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        10 hours ago














      7












      7








      7





      $begingroup$

      Those are the definitions of each. They don't assume anything about the system and can always be applied. You are getting mixed up with the scenarios in which they are usually applied since nice things happen. For example, for a system at constant pressure (and number of particles) $Delta H=Q$, where $Q$ is the heat that enters or leaves the system.



      To add some more detail, this can be seen by substituting in the thermodynamic identity
      $$text dU=Ttext dS-Ptext dV+mutext d N$$
      into the differential of one of your thermodynamic potentials. For example, as mentioned above we have
      $$text dH=text dU+Ptext dV+Vtext dP$$
      so then
      $$text dH=Ttext dS+Vtext dP+mutext dN$$
      i.e. at constant pressure and number of particles $text dH=Ttext dS=text dQ$



      You also say that the Gibbs free energy takes both mentioned assumptions "for granted", but see what happens if you do this process with the Gibbs free energy at constant temperature and pressure. It is a very important relation.



      These processes are more generally called Legendre transformations






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      Those are the definitions of each. They don't assume anything about the system and can always be applied. You are getting mixed up with the scenarios in which they are usually applied since nice things happen. For example, for a system at constant pressure (and number of particles) $Delta H=Q$, where $Q$ is the heat that enters or leaves the system.



      To add some more detail, this can be seen by substituting in the thermodynamic identity
      $$text dU=Ttext dS-Ptext dV+mutext d N$$
      into the differential of one of your thermodynamic potentials. For example, as mentioned above we have
      $$text dH=text dU+Ptext dV+Vtext dP$$
      so then
      $$text dH=Ttext dS+Vtext dP+mutext dN$$
      i.e. at constant pressure and number of particles $text dH=Ttext dS=text dQ$



      You also say that the Gibbs free energy takes both mentioned assumptions "for granted", but see what happens if you do this process with the Gibbs free energy at constant temperature and pressure. It is a very important relation.



      These processes are more generally called Legendre transformations







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited 2 days ago

























      answered 2 days ago









      Aaron StevensAaron Stevens

      14.2k42252




      14.2k42252











      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        10 hours ago

















      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
        $endgroup$
        – PiKindOfGuy
        2 days ago










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        yesterday










      • $begingroup$
        @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
        $endgroup$
        – Aaron Stevens
        10 hours ago
















      $begingroup$
      Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
      $endgroup$
      – PiKindOfGuy
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      Sorry, I'm still confused. Are you claiming that if I don't assume anything about the environment those definitions still hold?
      $endgroup$
      – PiKindOfGuy
      2 days ago












      $begingroup$
      @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      @PiKindOfGuy Yes that is exactly right. As long as the system has well defined Pressure, Volume, Entropy, etc. then those definitions are fine. Why wouldn't they be? They are just definitions in terms of state variables. They don't refer to any processes. It is just how we define work to be $W=intmathbf Fcdottext dmathbf x$. As long as we have a force acting on an object over a distance the definition applies without any further assumptions of the system.
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      2 days ago












      $begingroup$
      The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
      $endgroup$
      – PiKindOfGuy
      2 days ago




      $begingroup$
      The pressure in those equations refers to the pressure of the environment, not that of the system, no? (See your comment.)
      $endgroup$
      – PiKindOfGuy
      2 days ago












      $begingroup$
      @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      yesterday




      $begingroup$
      @PiKindOfGuy We usually assume quasi-static processes where at any point in time the system is at equilibrium, so the pressure the system exerts on its boundary is the same as the pressure exerted on the system boundary by the environment
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      yesterday












      $begingroup$
      @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      10 hours ago





      $begingroup$
      @PiKindOfGuy Is there anything else I can do to make things more clear here?
      $endgroup$
      – Aaron Stevens
      10 hours ago












      0












      $begingroup$

      I agree with @Aaron Stevens. There are no built in assumptions of constant pressure or temperature in these definitions.



      The Hemlholtz free energy, Gibbs free energy, Enthalpy and Internal Energy are sometimes referred to as thermodynamic potentials. For a discussion of these check out



      http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/helmholtz.html



      Hope this helps.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        0












        $begingroup$

        I agree with @Aaron Stevens. There are no built in assumptions of constant pressure or temperature in these definitions.



        The Hemlholtz free energy, Gibbs free energy, Enthalpy and Internal Energy are sometimes referred to as thermodynamic potentials. For a discussion of these check out



        http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/helmholtz.html



        Hope this helps.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          I agree with @Aaron Stevens. There are no built in assumptions of constant pressure or temperature in these definitions.



          The Hemlholtz free energy, Gibbs free energy, Enthalpy and Internal Energy are sometimes referred to as thermodynamic potentials. For a discussion of these check out



          http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/helmholtz.html



          Hope this helps.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          I agree with @Aaron Stevens. There are no built in assumptions of constant pressure or temperature in these definitions.



          The Hemlholtz free energy, Gibbs free energy, Enthalpy and Internal Energy are sometimes referred to as thermodynamic potentials. For a discussion of these check out



          http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/helmholtz.html



          Hope this helps.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 2 days ago









          Bob DBob D

          4,4052318




          4,4052318





















              0












              $begingroup$

              It is important to keep separate definitions of thermodynamic potentials (TP) from the specific cases where one particular TP is more convenient than others.



              Let me use the Gibbs free energy $G$ as an example (the cases of Helmholtz free energy and enthalpy can be obtained by a parallel discussion).



              Let's start from the fact that the most convenient way of representing the internal energy $U$ of a fluid system as a function of the thermodynamic state is to use as independent variables the entropy $S$, the volume $V$ and the number of particles $N$. Such a choice does not imply any constraint on the system and in principle it is possible to use thermodynamic relations to express the same value of the internal energy as a function of different state variables (say $T$ and/or $P$). However, it turns out that only the description in terms of the set $S,V,T$ allows to encode the full thermodynamic behavior in one function of three variables. From this "privileged" choice of variables one can derive other descriptions using different state variables, but it is not possible to go the other way around. For instance, knowing $U(T,V,N)$ does not allow to reconstruct $U(S,V,N)$ (this is discussed in detail in Callen's textbook on Thermodynamics).



              The right way to change the independent variables while keeping the same information about the system as contained in $U(S,V,N)$ is to perform a Legendre transform (better a Legendre-Fenchel transform, due to the possibility of discontinuity of first derivatives).
              Legendre(-Fenchel) transforms of the internal energy are the so-called thermodynamic potentials.



              The Legendre transform to obtain the Gibbs free energy is briefly indicated as
              $$
              G = U -TS +PV
              $$

              Actually, the precise meaning of the above expression is that one starts with $U(S,V,N)$ and then $G$ is defined as
              $$
              G(T,P,N) = inf_S,V ( U(S,V,N) - TS + PV )
              $$

              Therefore, at level of definition, $T$ and $P$ are fixed just in the sense that one has to fix the values of the independent variables to identify the point where the function is evaluated. $T$ and $P$ can be changed at will and correspondingly one finds a value for $G$. Once one is using $T,P,N$ as independent variables, this does not imply that the conjugate variables $S,V,mu$ are not definite or do not have a precise value. Their values are fixed by the function $G$ and can be obtained by the relations
              $$S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N,~~~~
              V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N, ~~~~
              mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P.$$



              After introducing thermodynamic potentials with their natural variables ($T,P,N$ for $G$), since the differential of each thermodynamic potentials is obviously a sum of therms multiplying the differential of the independent variables, in the case of $G$
              $$
              dG = -SdT + VdP + mu dN
              $$

              where $S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N$,
              $V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N$ and
              $mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P$.



              Therefore, in the case of a transformation keeping constant some of the variables $T,P,N$ one gets a simplified formula with respect to the full differential.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                It is important to keep separate definitions of thermodynamic potentials (TP) from the specific cases where one particular TP is more convenient than others.



                Let me use the Gibbs free energy $G$ as an example (the cases of Helmholtz free energy and enthalpy can be obtained by a parallel discussion).



                Let's start from the fact that the most convenient way of representing the internal energy $U$ of a fluid system as a function of the thermodynamic state is to use as independent variables the entropy $S$, the volume $V$ and the number of particles $N$. Such a choice does not imply any constraint on the system and in principle it is possible to use thermodynamic relations to express the same value of the internal energy as a function of different state variables (say $T$ and/or $P$). However, it turns out that only the description in terms of the set $S,V,T$ allows to encode the full thermodynamic behavior in one function of three variables. From this "privileged" choice of variables one can derive other descriptions using different state variables, but it is not possible to go the other way around. For instance, knowing $U(T,V,N)$ does not allow to reconstruct $U(S,V,N)$ (this is discussed in detail in Callen's textbook on Thermodynamics).



                The right way to change the independent variables while keeping the same information about the system as contained in $U(S,V,N)$ is to perform a Legendre transform (better a Legendre-Fenchel transform, due to the possibility of discontinuity of first derivatives).
                Legendre(-Fenchel) transforms of the internal energy are the so-called thermodynamic potentials.



                The Legendre transform to obtain the Gibbs free energy is briefly indicated as
                $$
                G = U -TS +PV
                $$

                Actually, the precise meaning of the above expression is that one starts with $U(S,V,N)$ and then $G$ is defined as
                $$
                G(T,P,N) = inf_S,V ( U(S,V,N) - TS + PV )
                $$

                Therefore, at level of definition, $T$ and $P$ are fixed just in the sense that one has to fix the values of the independent variables to identify the point where the function is evaluated. $T$ and $P$ can be changed at will and correspondingly one finds a value for $G$. Once one is using $T,P,N$ as independent variables, this does not imply that the conjugate variables $S,V,mu$ are not definite or do not have a precise value. Their values are fixed by the function $G$ and can be obtained by the relations
                $$S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N,~~~~
                V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N, ~~~~
                mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P.$$



                After introducing thermodynamic potentials with their natural variables ($T,P,N$ for $G$), since the differential of each thermodynamic potentials is obviously a sum of therms multiplying the differential of the independent variables, in the case of $G$
                $$
                dG = -SdT + VdP + mu dN
                $$

                where $S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N$,
                $V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N$ and
                $mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P$.



                Therefore, in the case of a transformation keeping constant some of the variables $T,P,N$ one gets a simplified formula with respect to the full differential.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  It is important to keep separate definitions of thermodynamic potentials (TP) from the specific cases where one particular TP is more convenient than others.



                  Let me use the Gibbs free energy $G$ as an example (the cases of Helmholtz free energy and enthalpy can be obtained by a parallel discussion).



                  Let's start from the fact that the most convenient way of representing the internal energy $U$ of a fluid system as a function of the thermodynamic state is to use as independent variables the entropy $S$, the volume $V$ and the number of particles $N$. Such a choice does not imply any constraint on the system and in principle it is possible to use thermodynamic relations to express the same value of the internal energy as a function of different state variables (say $T$ and/or $P$). However, it turns out that only the description in terms of the set $S,V,T$ allows to encode the full thermodynamic behavior in one function of three variables. From this "privileged" choice of variables one can derive other descriptions using different state variables, but it is not possible to go the other way around. For instance, knowing $U(T,V,N)$ does not allow to reconstruct $U(S,V,N)$ (this is discussed in detail in Callen's textbook on Thermodynamics).



                  The right way to change the independent variables while keeping the same information about the system as contained in $U(S,V,N)$ is to perform a Legendre transform (better a Legendre-Fenchel transform, due to the possibility of discontinuity of first derivatives).
                  Legendre(-Fenchel) transforms of the internal energy are the so-called thermodynamic potentials.



                  The Legendre transform to obtain the Gibbs free energy is briefly indicated as
                  $$
                  G = U -TS +PV
                  $$

                  Actually, the precise meaning of the above expression is that one starts with $U(S,V,N)$ and then $G$ is defined as
                  $$
                  G(T,P,N) = inf_S,V ( U(S,V,N) - TS + PV )
                  $$

                  Therefore, at level of definition, $T$ and $P$ are fixed just in the sense that one has to fix the values of the independent variables to identify the point where the function is evaluated. $T$ and $P$ can be changed at will and correspondingly one finds a value for $G$. Once one is using $T,P,N$ as independent variables, this does not imply that the conjugate variables $S,V,mu$ are not definite or do not have a precise value. Their values are fixed by the function $G$ and can be obtained by the relations
                  $$S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N,~~~~
                  V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N, ~~~~
                  mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P.$$



                  After introducing thermodynamic potentials with their natural variables ($T,P,N$ for $G$), since the differential of each thermodynamic potentials is obviously a sum of therms multiplying the differential of the independent variables, in the case of $G$
                  $$
                  dG = -SdT + VdP + mu dN
                  $$

                  where $S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N$,
                  $V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N$ and
                  $mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P$.



                  Therefore, in the case of a transformation keeping constant some of the variables $T,P,N$ one gets a simplified formula with respect to the full differential.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  It is important to keep separate definitions of thermodynamic potentials (TP) from the specific cases where one particular TP is more convenient than others.



                  Let me use the Gibbs free energy $G$ as an example (the cases of Helmholtz free energy and enthalpy can be obtained by a parallel discussion).



                  Let's start from the fact that the most convenient way of representing the internal energy $U$ of a fluid system as a function of the thermodynamic state is to use as independent variables the entropy $S$, the volume $V$ and the number of particles $N$. Such a choice does not imply any constraint on the system and in principle it is possible to use thermodynamic relations to express the same value of the internal energy as a function of different state variables (say $T$ and/or $P$). However, it turns out that only the description in terms of the set $S,V,T$ allows to encode the full thermodynamic behavior in one function of three variables. From this "privileged" choice of variables one can derive other descriptions using different state variables, but it is not possible to go the other way around. For instance, knowing $U(T,V,N)$ does not allow to reconstruct $U(S,V,N)$ (this is discussed in detail in Callen's textbook on Thermodynamics).



                  The right way to change the independent variables while keeping the same information about the system as contained in $U(S,V,N)$ is to perform a Legendre transform (better a Legendre-Fenchel transform, due to the possibility of discontinuity of first derivatives).
                  Legendre(-Fenchel) transforms of the internal energy are the so-called thermodynamic potentials.



                  The Legendre transform to obtain the Gibbs free energy is briefly indicated as
                  $$
                  G = U -TS +PV
                  $$

                  Actually, the precise meaning of the above expression is that one starts with $U(S,V,N)$ and then $G$ is defined as
                  $$
                  G(T,P,N) = inf_S,V ( U(S,V,N) - TS + PV )
                  $$

                  Therefore, at level of definition, $T$ and $P$ are fixed just in the sense that one has to fix the values of the independent variables to identify the point where the function is evaluated. $T$ and $P$ can be changed at will and correspondingly one finds a value for $G$. Once one is using $T,P,N$ as independent variables, this does not imply that the conjugate variables $S,V,mu$ are not definite or do not have a precise value. Their values are fixed by the function $G$ and can be obtained by the relations
                  $$S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N,~~~~
                  V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N, ~~~~
                  mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P.$$



                  After introducing thermodynamic potentials with their natural variables ($T,P,N$ for $G$), since the differential of each thermodynamic potentials is obviously a sum of therms multiplying the differential of the independent variables, in the case of $G$
                  $$
                  dG = -SdT + VdP + mu dN
                  $$

                  where $S=-left.fracpartialGpartialTright|_P,N$,
                  $V=left.fracpartialGpartialPright|_T,N$ and
                  $mu=left.fracpartialGpartialNright|_T,P$.



                  Therefore, in the case of a transformation keeping constant some of the variables $T,P,N$ one gets a simplified formula with respect to the full differential.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered yesterday









                  GiorgioPGiorgioP

                  4,2501628




                  4,2501628



























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded
















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid


                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function ()
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f470053%2fconcerning-the-definitions-of-the-enthalpy-the-helmholtz-free-energy-and-the-gi%23new-answer', 'question_page');

                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      getting Checkpoint VPN SSL Network Extender working in the command lineHow to connect to CheckPoint VPN on Ubuntu 18.04LTS?Will the Linux ( red-hat ) Open VPNC Client connect to checkpoint or nortel VPN gateways?VPN client for linux machine + support checkpoint gatewayVPN SSL Network Extender in FirefoxLinux Checkpoint SNX tool configuration issuesCheck Point - Connect under Linux - snx + OTPSNX VPN Ububuntu 18.XXUsing Checkpoint VPN SSL Network Extender CLI with certificateVPN with network manager (nm-applet) is not workingWill the Linux ( red-hat ) Open VPNC Client connect to checkpoint or nortel VPN gateways?VPN client for linux machine + support checkpoint gatewayImport VPN config files to NetworkManager from command lineTrouble connecting to VPN using network-manager, while command line worksStart a VPN connection with PPTP protocol on command linestarting a docker service daemon breaks the vpn networkCan't connect to vpn with Network-managerVPN SSL Network Extender in FirefoxUsing Checkpoint VPN SSL Network Extender CLI with certificate

                      Cannot Extend partition with GParted The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) 2019 Community Moderator Election ResultsCan't increase partition size with GParted?GParted doesn't recognize the unallocated space after my current partitionWhat is the best way to add unallocated space located before to Ubuntu 12.04 partition with GParted live?I can't figure out how to extend my Arch home partition into free spaceGparted Linux Mint 18.1 issueTrying to extend but swap partition is showing as Unknown in Gparted, shows proper from fdiskRearrange partitions in gparted to extend a partitionUnable to extend partition even though unallocated space is next to it using GPartedAllocate free space to root partitiongparted: how to merge unallocated space with a partition

                      Marilyn Monroe Ny fiainany manokana | Jereo koa | Meny fitetezanafanitarana azy.