How obscure is the use of 令 in 令和?How should I write “ikigai” in shodō?How to choose the right kanji from several choices?Multiple common kanji for a word: which to use?When to use 座る vs 坐るWhat are the most obscure kanji?The meaning of “yoi” in martial artsVariations in the “same” kanji, how do you know which one to use?Should I use 竜 or 龍?The meaning of 昭道館 vs 松濤館What's the difference between 読み and 読書?
What is the word for reserving something for yourself before others do?
Combinations of multiple lists
Could gravitational lensing be used to protect a spaceship from a laser?
Infinite Abelian subgroup of infinite non Abelian group example
Is it inappropriate for a student to attend their mentor's dissertation defense?
In Romance of the Three Kingdoms why do people still use bamboo sticks when paper had already been invented?
How much of data wrangling is a data scientist's job?
What is the most common color to indicate the input-field is disabled?
When a company launches a new product do they "come out" with a new product or do they "come up" with a new product?
Why is the 'in' operator throwing an error with a string literal instead of logging false?
Why doesn't H₄O²⁺ exist?
What mechanic is there to disable a threat instead of killing it?
Is it possible to run Internet Explorer on OS X El Capitan?
Blender 2.8 I can't see vertices, edges or faces in edit mode
1960's book about a plague that kills all white people
Would Slavery Reparations be considered Bills of Attainder and hence Illegal?
Why do I get two different answers for this counting problem?
Forgetting the musical notes while performing in concert
What is the intuition behind short exact sequences of groups; in particular, what is the intuition behind group extensions?
I Accidentally Deleted a Stock Terminal Theme
What killed these X2 caps?
How could indestructible materials be used in power generation?
What is going on with Captain Marvel's blood colour?
Today is the Center
How obscure is the use of 令 in 令和?
How should I write “ikigai” in shodō?How to choose the right kanji from several choices?Multiple common kanji for a word: which to use?When to use 座る vs 坐るWhat are the most obscure kanji?The meaning of “yoi” in martial artsVariations in the “same” kanji, how do you know which one to use?Should I use 竜 or 龍?The meaning of 昭道館 vs 松濤館What's the difference between 読み and 読書?
I actually like the new 年号 kanji 令和, but I must admit I was surprised by the choice of 令. According to this article in the Japan Times,
The new era name is composed of two Chinese characters — “rei” meaning “good” or “auspicious” but also denoting “command,” and “wa” meaning “harmony” or “peace.”
This seems to give the impression that 'command' is a subordinate meaning, but I I believe I am correct in saying that the dominant meaning of 令 by far is 'command' or 'order', and that the meaning of 'good' or 'auspicious' is a very obscure usage. Most modern words containing 令 denote the 'command' meaning (see here). Yes, I understand that they chose a historical text of key importance, but perhaps someone could enlighten us on what the process might have been on selecting that particular character. I defer to the knowledge of scholars of course, but I am very curious as to how/why they came to agreement on 令. Am I correct in assuming that most Japanese people were not aware of this obscure meaning of 令?
kanji kanji-choice
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
add a comment |
I actually like the new 年号 kanji 令和, but I must admit I was surprised by the choice of 令. According to this article in the Japan Times,
The new era name is composed of two Chinese characters — “rei” meaning “good” or “auspicious” but also denoting “command,” and “wa” meaning “harmony” or “peace.”
This seems to give the impression that 'command' is a subordinate meaning, but I I believe I am correct in saying that the dominant meaning of 令 by far is 'command' or 'order', and that the meaning of 'good' or 'auspicious' is a very obscure usage. Most modern words containing 令 denote the 'command' meaning (see here). Yes, I understand that they chose a historical text of key importance, but perhaps someone could enlighten us on what the process might have been on selecting that particular character. I defer to the knowledge of scholars of course, but I am very curious as to how/why they came to agreement on 令. Am I correct in assuming that most Japanese people were not aware of this obscure meaning of 令?
kanji kanji-choice
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
At the first sight I thought they creatively recycled 令 that had been used to spell しむ somewhere, because it's so common in the older Japanese writing style. Also, it'd be fun to know that 令 is rarely seen in the beginning of a compound word when it mean "order".
– broccoli forest
2 days ago
Yes it's interesting that 令 is usually the 2nd character in a compound. I never realized that!
– kandyman
2 days ago
Apparently the Chinese too had a hard time with the name: japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/01/national/…
– Mathieu Bouville
yesterday
add a comment |
I actually like the new 年号 kanji 令和, but I must admit I was surprised by the choice of 令. According to this article in the Japan Times,
The new era name is composed of two Chinese characters — “rei” meaning “good” or “auspicious” but also denoting “command,” and “wa” meaning “harmony” or “peace.”
This seems to give the impression that 'command' is a subordinate meaning, but I I believe I am correct in saying that the dominant meaning of 令 by far is 'command' or 'order', and that the meaning of 'good' or 'auspicious' is a very obscure usage. Most modern words containing 令 denote the 'command' meaning (see here). Yes, I understand that they chose a historical text of key importance, but perhaps someone could enlighten us on what the process might have been on selecting that particular character. I defer to the knowledge of scholars of course, but I am very curious as to how/why they came to agreement on 令. Am I correct in assuming that most Japanese people were not aware of this obscure meaning of 令?
kanji kanji-choice
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
I actually like the new 年号 kanji 令和, but I must admit I was surprised by the choice of 令. According to this article in the Japan Times,
The new era name is composed of two Chinese characters — “rei” meaning “good” or “auspicious” but also denoting “command,” and “wa” meaning “harmony” or “peace.”
This seems to give the impression that 'command' is a subordinate meaning, but I I believe I am correct in saying that the dominant meaning of 令 by far is 'command' or 'order', and that the meaning of 'good' or 'auspicious' is a very obscure usage. Most modern words containing 令 denote the 'command' meaning (see here). Yes, I understand that they chose a historical text of key importance, but perhaps someone could enlighten us on what the process might have been on selecting that particular character. I defer to the knowledge of scholars of course, but I am very curious as to how/why they came to agreement on 令. Am I correct in assuming that most Japanese people were not aware of this obscure meaning of 令?
kanji kanji-choice
kanji kanji-choice
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
asked 2 days ago
kandymankandyman
3,620723
3,620723
At the first sight I thought they creatively recycled 令 that had been used to spell しむ somewhere, because it's so common in the older Japanese writing style. Also, it'd be fun to know that 令 is rarely seen in the beginning of a compound word when it mean "order".
– broccoli forest
2 days ago
Yes it's interesting that 令 is usually the 2nd character in a compound. I never realized that!
– kandyman
2 days ago
Apparently the Chinese too had a hard time with the name: japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/01/national/…
– Mathieu Bouville
yesterday
add a comment |
At the first sight I thought they creatively recycled 令 that had been used to spell しむ somewhere, because it's so common in the older Japanese writing style. Also, it'd be fun to know that 令 is rarely seen in the beginning of a compound word when it mean "order".
– broccoli forest
2 days ago
Yes it's interesting that 令 is usually the 2nd character in a compound. I never realized that!
– kandyman
2 days ago
Apparently the Chinese too had a hard time with the name: japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/01/national/…
– Mathieu Bouville
yesterday
At the first sight I thought they creatively recycled 令 that had been used to spell しむ somewhere, because it's so common in the older Japanese writing style. Also, it'd be fun to know that 令 is rarely seen in the beginning of a compound word when it mean "order".
– broccoli forest
2 days ago
At the first sight I thought they creatively recycled 令 that had been used to spell しむ somewhere, because it's so common in the older Japanese writing style. Also, it'd be fun to know that 令 is rarely seen in the beginning of a compound word when it mean "order".
– broccoli forest
2 days ago
Yes it's interesting that 令 is usually the 2nd character in a compound. I never realized that!
– kandyman
2 days ago
Yes it's interesting that 令 is usually the 2nd character in a compound. I never realized that!
– kandyman
2 days ago
Apparently the Chinese too had a hard time with the name: japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/01/national/…
– Mathieu Bouville
yesterday
Apparently the Chinese too had a hard time with the name: japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/01/national/…
– Mathieu Bouville
yesterday
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
All the previous nengo are from Chinese Classical Chinese texts - this should set a precedence that, if you aren't familiar with the Chinese Classics, you wouldn't (fully) understand the choice of characters in a nengo.
Even though the source text of the current nengo is from the Japanese Man'yōshū, the choice from this context is also kanbun, and steeped in Classical Chinese vocabulary:
于時、初春「令」月、氣淑風「和」、梅披鏡前之粉、蘭薫珮後之香。
Translation (as given in Wikipedia):
The time is young spring in a fair ("Rei") month, when the air is clear and the wind a gentle ("wa") breeze; when the plum flowers blossom a beauty's charming white, and the fragrance of the orchids is their own sweet perfume.
I personally wouldn't have mentioned the meaning command for「令」; although that is its original meaning and also primary meaning for modern vocabulary, it is not relevant here. Please note the word from the poem is「令月」, which is a vocabulary item from Classical Chinese meaning auspicious month (not "command month", which is nonsensical). From the Book of Etiquette and Ceremonial:
《儀禮・士冠禮》：＂令月吉日，始加元服，棄爾幼志，順爾成德，壽考惟祺，介爾景福。＂
Choose an auspicious month and day, wear a cap (in the coming-of-age capping ceremony), shed yourself of immaturity, and cultivate the noble virtues in adulthood. Longevity and auspiciousness are yours, and may great fortune be bestowed upon you.
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
2
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
2
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...
– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
add a comment |
As a matter of fact, I did not even recall the meaning of "command/order" when I first saw 令和. 令 struck me as "just another nice-sounding kanji".
Although 玲 and 怜 may be more popular, 令 is not rare at all in person names (e.g., 令二, 令奈). These are so popular and natural in proper nouns that I don't usually bother to care what they mean.
In addition, virtually every adult knows the word 令嬢 (181 instances in BCCWJ). From what I have observed, many people quickly recalled the positive meaning of 令 from this word.
Of course there are always people who hate everything the government does, but the majority of people seem to be welcoming.
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
1
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "257"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);
else
createEditor();
);
function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);
);
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fjapanese.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f66391%2fhow-obscure-is-the-use-of-%25e4%25bb%25a4-in-%25e4%25bb%25a4%25e5%2592%258c%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
All the previous nengo are from Chinese Classical Chinese texts - this should set a precedence that, if you aren't familiar with the Chinese Classics, you wouldn't (fully) understand the choice of characters in a nengo.
Even though the source text of the current nengo is from the Japanese Man'yōshū, the choice from this context is also kanbun, and steeped in Classical Chinese vocabulary:
于時、初春「令」月、氣淑風「和」、梅披鏡前之粉、蘭薫珮後之香。
Translation (as given in Wikipedia):
The time is young spring in a fair ("Rei") month, when the air is clear and the wind a gentle ("wa") breeze; when the plum flowers blossom a beauty's charming white, and the fragrance of the orchids is their own sweet perfume.
I personally wouldn't have mentioned the meaning command for「令」; although that is its original meaning and also primary meaning for modern vocabulary, it is not relevant here. Please note the word from the poem is「令月」, which is a vocabulary item from Classical Chinese meaning auspicious month (not "command month", which is nonsensical). From the Book of Etiquette and Ceremonial:
《儀禮・士冠禮》：＂令月吉日，始加元服，棄爾幼志，順爾成德，壽考惟祺，介爾景福。＂
Choose an auspicious month and day, wear a cap (in the coming-of-age capping ceremony), shed yourself of immaturity, and cultivate the noble virtues in adulthood. Longevity and auspiciousness are yours, and may great fortune be bestowed upon you.
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
2
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
2
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...
– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
add a comment |
All the previous nengo are from Chinese Classical Chinese texts - this should set a precedence that, if you aren't familiar with the Chinese Classics, you wouldn't (fully) understand the choice of characters in a nengo.
Even though the source text of the current nengo is from the Japanese Man'yōshū, the choice from this context is also kanbun, and steeped in Classical Chinese vocabulary:
于時、初春「令」月、氣淑風「和」、梅披鏡前之粉、蘭薫珮後之香。
Translation (as given in Wikipedia):
The time is young spring in a fair ("Rei") month, when the air is clear and the wind a gentle ("wa") breeze; when the plum flowers blossom a beauty's charming white, and the fragrance of the orchids is their own sweet perfume.
I personally wouldn't have mentioned the meaning command for「令」; although that is its original meaning and also primary meaning for modern vocabulary, it is not relevant here. Please note the word from the poem is「令月」, which is a vocabulary item from Classical Chinese meaning auspicious month (not "command month", which is nonsensical). From the Book of Etiquette and Ceremonial:
《儀禮・士冠禮》：＂令月吉日，始加元服，棄爾幼志，順爾成德，壽考惟祺，介爾景福。＂
Choose an auspicious month and day, wear a cap (in the coming-of-age capping ceremony), shed yourself of immaturity, and cultivate the noble virtues in adulthood. Longevity and auspiciousness are yours, and may great fortune be bestowed upon you.
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
2
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
2
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...
– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
add a comment |
All the previous nengo are from Chinese Classical Chinese texts - this should set a precedence that, if you aren't familiar with the Chinese Classics, you wouldn't (fully) understand the choice of characters in a nengo.
Even though the source text of the current nengo is from the Japanese Man'yōshū, the choice from this context is also kanbun, and steeped in Classical Chinese vocabulary:
于時、初春「令」月、氣淑風「和」、梅披鏡前之粉、蘭薫珮後之香。
Translation (as given in Wikipedia):
The time is young spring in a fair ("Rei") month, when the air is clear and the wind a gentle ("wa") breeze; when the plum flowers blossom a beauty's charming white, and the fragrance of the orchids is their own sweet perfume.
I personally wouldn't have mentioned the meaning command for「令」; although that is its original meaning and also primary meaning for modern vocabulary, it is not relevant here. Please note the word from the poem is「令月」, which is a vocabulary item from Classical Chinese meaning auspicious month (not "command month", which is nonsensical). From the Book of Etiquette and Ceremonial:
《儀禮・士冠禮》：＂令月吉日，始加元服，棄爾幼志，順爾成德，壽考惟祺，介爾景福。＂
Choose an auspicious month and day, wear a cap (in the coming-of-age capping ceremony), shed yourself of immaturity, and cultivate the noble virtues in adulthood. Longevity and auspiciousness are yours, and may great fortune be bestowed upon you.
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
All the previous nengo are from Chinese Classical Chinese texts - this should set a precedence that, if you aren't familiar with the Chinese Classics, you wouldn't (fully) understand the choice of characters in a nengo.
Even though the source text of the current nengo is from the Japanese Man'yōshū, the choice from this context is also kanbun, and steeped in Classical Chinese vocabulary:
于時、初春「令」月、氣淑風「和」、梅披鏡前之粉、蘭薫珮後之香。
Translation (as given in Wikipedia):
The time is young spring in a fair ("Rei") month, when the air is clear and the wind a gentle ("wa") breeze; when the plum flowers blossom a beauty's charming white, and the fragrance of the orchids is their own sweet perfume.
I personally wouldn't have mentioned the meaning command for「令」; although that is its original meaning and also primary meaning for modern vocabulary, it is not relevant here. Please note the word from the poem is「令月」, which is a vocabulary item from Classical Chinese meaning auspicious month (not "command month", which is nonsensical). From the Book of Etiquette and Ceremonial:
《儀禮・士冠禮》：＂令月吉日，始加元服，棄爾幼志，順爾成德，壽考惟祺，介爾景福。＂
Choose an auspicious month and day, wear a cap (in the coming-of-age capping ceremony), shed yourself of immaturity, and cultivate the noble virtues in adulthood. Longevity and auspiciousness are yours, and may great fortune be bestowed upon you.
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
edited 2 days ago
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
answered 2 days ago
drooozedroooze
5,98412035
5,98412035
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
2
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
2
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...
– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
add a comment |
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
2
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
2
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...
– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
Interesting! So the meaning of 令 somehow shifted from its Early Japanese/Chinese origin of 'auspicious' to the modern meaning of 'command'?
– kandyman
2 days ago
2
2
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
@kandyman ah, no. The meaning auspicious is probably a phonetic loan or (more unlikely) semantic extension. The original meaning of 令 is command, as given by its character structure: a mouth 亼 speaking to a kneeling person 卩. I clarified the answer a bit.
– droooze
2 days ago
2
2
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
a phonetic loan from what?
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):
...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...– droooze
2 days ago
@kandyman the Qing Dynasty commentary on the Shuowen, 《說文解字注》, says that the auspicious meaning of 令 is a phonetic loan from 靈 (God, spirit, nimbile, effective > auspicious; Shinjitai: 霊):
...凡令訓善者、靈之假借字也。...– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
Sorry, *nimble.
– droooze
2 days ago
add a comment |
As a matter of fact, I did not even recall the meaning of "command/order" when I first saw 令和. 令 struck me as "just another nice-sounding kanji".
Although 玲 and 怜 may be more popular, 令 is not rare at all in person names (e.g., 令二, 令奈). These are so popular and natural in proper nouns that I don't usually bother to care what they mean.
In addition, virtually every adult knows the word 令嬢 (181 instances in BCCWJ). From what I have observed, many people quickly recalled the positive meaning of 令 from this word.
Of course there are always people who hate everything the government does, but the majority of people seem to be welcoming.
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
1
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
add a comment |
As a matter of fact, I did not even recall the meaning of "command/order" when I first saw 令和. 令 struck me as "just another nice-sounding kanji".
Although 玲 and 怜 may be more popular, 令 is not rare at all in person names (e.g., 令二, 令奈). These are so popular and natural in proper nouns that I don't usually bother to care what they mean.
In addition, virtually every adult knows the word 令嬢 (181 instances in BCCWJ). From what I have observed, many people quickly recalled the positive meaning of 令 from this word.
Of course there are always people who hate everything the government does, but the majority of people seem to be welcoming.
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
1
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
add a comment |
As a matter of fact, I did not even recall the meaning of "command/order" when I first saw 令和. 令 struck me as "just another nice-sounding kanji".
Although 玲 and 怜 may be more popular, 令 is not rare at all in person names (e.g., 令二, 令奈). These are so popular and natural in proper nouns that I don't usually bother to care what they mean.
In addition, virtually every adult knows the word 令嬢 (181 instances in BCCWJ). From what I have observed, many people quickly recalled the positive meaning of 令 from this word.
Of course there are always people who hate everything the government does, but the majority of people seem to be welcoming.
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
As a matter of fact, I did not even recall the meaning of "command/order" when I first saw 令和. 令 struck me as "just another nice-sounding kanji".
Although 玲 and 怜 may be more popular, 令 is not rare at all in person names (e.g., 令二, 令奈). These are so popular and natural in proper nouns that I don't usually bother to care what they mean.
In addition, virtually every adult knows the word 令嬢 (181 instances in BCCWJ). From what I have observed, many people quickly recalled the positive meaning of 令 from this word.
Of course there are always people who hate everything the government does, but the majority of people seem to be welcoming.
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
answered 2 days ago
narutonaruto
164k8158313
164k8158313
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
1
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
add a comment |
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
1
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
Yes it is commonly known as being pronounced as 'rei' but I should have specified that I was asking if Japanese people were familiar with the meaning rather than the reading.
– kandyman
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
So I would say people have vaguely understood that 令 is a good kanji suitable as a name or a compound like 令嬢. There are some kanji which are popular in person names even though their original meanings are almost forgotten (e.g., 伊, 圭, 瑞, 奈).
– naruto
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
Even if the 漢字 for 令 were taken for its meaning of "command/order" in the word 令和, I would expect the result to be along the lines of "orderly peace" and not "commanding peace," which would be oxymoronic in many senses. However, as others have already pointed out, the meaning that the chosen 漢字 hold is based on an older text. The revolution here is that the selection was made from the Japanese 万葉集 and not from Classical Chinese texts.
– psosuna
2 days ago
1
1
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@psosuna I disagree with you on that. The word 'order' in English points to at least two different lexical items. One is 'system' and another is 'command'. These are different ideas and although there may be a relationship they are clearly different lexemes.. The dominant meaning of 令 is related to commands, not systems. It points clearly to one of those English lexical items but not another, in my opinion.
– kandyman
2 days ago
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
@kandyman I'll defer to that interpretation. I decided to look up a dictionary to see what kind of words are formed with 令, and it seems you're right.
– psosuna
yesterday
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Japanese Language Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fjapanese.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f66391%2fhow-obscure-is-the-use-of-%25e4%25bb%25a4-in-%25e4%25bb%25a4%25e5%2592%258c%23new-answer', 'question_page');
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function ()
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
);
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
At the first sight I thought they creatively recycled 令 that had been used to spell しむ somewhere, because it's so common in the older Japanese writing style. Also, it'd be fun to know that 令 is rarely seen in the beginning of a compound word when it mean "order".
– broccoli forest
2 days ago
Yes it's interesting that 令 is usually the 2nd character in a compound. I never realized that!
– kandyman
2 days ago
Apparently the Chinese too had a hard time with the name: japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/04/01/national/…
– Mathieu Bouville
yesterday