Pronouncing Dictionary.com's W.O.D “vade mecum” in English The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhy is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?Traditional vs. classical pronunciation of Latin words in EnglishPronouncing acronymsPronouncing “A”: “ai” vs. “ah”Pronouncing “vis-à-vis”?Pronouncing th after r in Standard American English: /ɹð/Exercises for pronouncing the rPronouncing MethanePronouncing the word “getting”Pronouncing 'Going' in UK EnglishPronouncing 4.5 metersRecent change in pronouncing homage

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Pronouncing Dictionary.com's W.O.D “vade mecum” in English



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhy is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?Traditional vs. classical pronunciation of Latin words in EnglishPronouncing acronymsPronouncing “A”: “ai” vs. “ah”Pronouncing “vis-à-vis”?Pronouncing th after r in Standard American English: /ɹð/Exercises for pronouncing the rPronouncing MethanePronouncing the word “getting”Pronouncing 'Going' in UK EnglishPronouncing 4.5 metersRecent change in pronouncing homage



.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty margin-bottom:0;








4















The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,




[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]




It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced




wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]




There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?










share|improve this question
























  • In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 14:04






  • 3





    I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 17:39












  • @MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 19:11











  • We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 19:41






  • 1





    Listen starting around 1:20.

    – Hot Licks
    2 days ago


















4















The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,




[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]




It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced




wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]




There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?










share|improve this question
























  • In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 14:04






  • 3





    I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 17:39












  • @MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 19:11











  • We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 19:41






  • 1





    Listen starting around 1:20.

    – Hot Licks
    2 days ago














4












4








4








The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,




[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]




It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced




wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]




There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?










share|improve this question
















The Word of the Day for April 7th, 2019 on Dictionary.com is vade mecum, coming from the Latin expression vāde mēcum meaning something like "come along with me." Dictionary.com lists the pronunciation options as,




[vey-dee mee-kuh m, vah-]




It's been some time since I've studied Latin, but a couple of discrepancies are obvious to me here. In Latin, this would be pronounced




wah deɪ meɪ cum/[wah-day may kum]




There's no "v" sound in Latin. That changes to "w". This change is understandable though. Nobody pronounces veni, vidi, vici with the "w" sound. However, the long A and E sounds they're using in the first syllables of both words are also absent in Latin, and, in thinking of some other Latin loan words--caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, carpe diem--I don't think I've encountered those vowel sounds before. So, considering that Dictionary.com is somewhat authoritative in providing pronunciation guidance, what are they basing their pronunciation on; and, further, how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English?







pronunciation latin






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 7 at 15:28







tylerharms

















asked Apr 7 at 13:59









tylerharmstylerharms

6,91053063




6,91053063












  • In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 14:04






  • 3





    I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 17:39












  • @MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 19:11











  • We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 19:41






  • 1





    Listen starting around 1:20.

    – Hot Licks
    2 days ago


















  • In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 14:04






  • 3





    I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 17:39












  • @MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 19:11











  • We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.

    – Michael Harvey
    Apr 7 at 19:41






  • 1





    Listen starting around 1:20.

    – Hot Licks
    2 days ago

















In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.

– Lambie
Apr 7 at 14:04





In Latin, with a capital l, like all words for languages in English.

– Lambie
Apr 7 at 14:04




3




3





I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.

– Michael Harvey
Apr 7 at 17:39






I was taught Latin, in an English school in the 1960s, using (I believe) the Restored Classical scheme introduced by the Board of Education in 1907. Caesar (Kye-zar) said "Wainy, weedy, weeky". I would have said "vade mecum" as wah-day maycoom", the 'u' syllable of 'mecum' pronounced as if by someone from Yorkshire.

– Michael Harvey
Apr 7 at 17:39














@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.

– tylerharms
Apr 7 at 19:11





@MichaelHarvey I used the Oxford English Course when I was studying Latin in the late 90's in college. They used the "classical" scheme, making no reference to any other pronunciation guide.

– tylerharms
Apr 7 at 19:11













We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.

– Michael Harvey
Apr 7 at 19:41





We weren't told, at age 11, about any 'schemes', it was just "this is the way you must pronounce Latin". It was only later, e.g. when I heard priests in movies speaking Latin as if it was modern Italian, that I realised there were other ways.

– Michael Harvey
Apr 7 at 19:41




1




1





Listen starting around 1:20.

– Hot Licks
2 days ago






Listen starting around 1:20.

– Hot Licks
2 days ago











3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















7














On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English



For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.



Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.




Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).




These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.



The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.



The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.



The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.



That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)



I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.



It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:27











  • I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

    – Andrew Leach
    Apr 7 at 19:54











  • @AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

    – Gábor
    Apr 7 at 22:01



















3














As Kate Bunting says, "vey-dee mee-kuh m" represents a pronunciation based on an old "traditional" system for pronouncing Latin. You can see further details in the Wikipedia article "Traditional English pronunciation of Latin".



Neither pronunciation uses Latin sounds



Neither this pronunciation, nor the alternative pronunciation that you suggested ("wah-day may kum") is the same as the pronunciation that scholars think was used in ancient times (the "reconstructed" pronunciation of Latin). A monolingual English speaker would find it difficult to produce the reconstructed pronunciation, because it includes a number of sounds that don't occur in most accents of English. For example, the sound of ē in Latin was almost certainly not the same as the sound that most English speakers use in the word "may": English speakers tend to make this vowel sound into a diphthong [eɪ], but Latin ē was a monophthong (pure vowel sound) [eː], more like the sound in Italian meno. At the end of a word, the letters -um are thought to have represented a nasalized vowel sound, without any final nasal consonant [m]. Putting it all together, the reconstructed Latin pronunciation of vāde mēcum would be something along the lines of [wade meːkũː], although the exact quality of the vowels is not certain (so it's possible that the [a] might be better transcribed as [ɑ], or the [e] as [ɛ], or the [ũ] as [ʊ̃]).



English students of Latin are sometimes taught an approximation of the reconstructed pronunciation that replaces some of the non-English sounds with sounds that English speakers find similar. But I think it's useful to keep in mind that the English sounds used in this "restored" pronunciation are part of Latin pronunciation only for modern English speakers. As far as I know, no Italian, German, or French speaker would ever use the English "may" diphthong sound to pronounce Latin ē. For more on the difference between the English "ay" sound and the IPA monophthong [e], see the following questions: Why is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?, What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?, Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?



Both pronunciations that you mention use English sounds to represent Latin; the difference lies in how the English sounds are mapped to Latin sounds/letters. The English sound [eɪ] represents Latin a in the "traditional" pronunciation system, and Latin ē (or sometimes ĕ) in the "restored" pronunciation system.



The "traditional" system is used for other terms



The "traditional" pronunciation system described in the linked Wikipedia article used to be more common (although it's not clear to me whether it was ever universal among English speakers: its alternatives also go back fairly far).



This "traditional" pronunciation is still not uncommon in some law Latin expressions: for example, stare decisis pronounced as "stairy de[saɪsɪs]". The traditional pronunciations of caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, and carpe diem do in fact exist and have been used, even if you may not have heard them: they are /ˈkeɪviæt/, /ˈsaɪni kweɪ ˈnɒn/, /ˈdræmətɪs pərˈsoʊniː/, and /ˈcarpi ˈdaɪəm/. It's also not that uncommon for the letter a to be pronounced as the [eɪ] ("ay") sound in nouns taken from Latin, such as hiatus, cloaca, meatus, foramen.



There is no general consensus about "how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English"; different people use different pronunciations, and it's up to you to decide who to imitate or which system to follow.






share|improve this answer

























  • I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago











  • And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago












  • @tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago











  • Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago



















2














English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf



However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.






share|improve this answer























  • That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 15:05











  • This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:18











  • "Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

    – JeremyC
    Apr 7 at 22:01











  • I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

    – Kate Bunting
    2 days ago












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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3






active

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active

oldest

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active

oldest

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7














On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English



For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.



Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.




Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).




These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.



The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.



The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.



The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.



That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)



I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.



It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:27











  • I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

    – Andrew Leach
    Apr 7 at 19:54











  • @AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

    – Gábor
    Apr 7 at 22:01
















7














On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English



For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.



Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.




Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).




These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.



The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.



The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.



The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.



That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)



I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.



It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:27











  • I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

    – Andrew Leach
    Apr 7 at 19:54











  • @AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

    – Gábor
    Apr 7 at 22:01














7












7








7







On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English



For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.



Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.




Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).




These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.



The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.



The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.



The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.



That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)



I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.



It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.






share|improve this answer













On the Classical vs Traditional pronunciation of Latin words in English



For your term’s pronunciation, its (paywalled) OED entry for vade-mecum lists first the /ˈvɑːdeɪ ˈmeɪkəm/ version with the FATHER vowel for the first stressed syllable and the FACE vowel for the second. Then following that one it has /ˈveɪdi ˈmiːkəm/ pronunciation now showing the FACE vowel in the first word and the FLEECE vowel in the second.



Notice how what had originally been a Latin imperative verb phrase is now uses as a noun in English and the other tongues that use the term, just like we nouned ignoramus from a Latin verb to an English noun.




Etymology: Latin, vāde imperative singular of vādĕre to go + mēcum with me. So French vademecum, Spanish vademecum, Portuguese vademecum (Portuguese also vademeco).




These two very different pronunciations respectively represent the so-called “classical” versus “traditional” pronunciation of Latin words in English, as mentioned in this answer and laboriously detailed in this very long Wikipedia article.



The essential difference is that the first one is far closer to the “classical” pronunciation of Latin. That is, it’s pronounced “as it’s spelled” using the original values of the Latin letters as they’re still used in the vast majority of non-English languages and indeed how they’re used in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It’s how someone who speaks Italian or Spanish or French or Portuguese or Romanian or German or Swedish would expect to pronounce it.



The only phonetic accommodations made are those required by the phonotactics of English pronunciation: Latin /e/ getting the customary non-phonemic off-glide we sometimes write as [eɪ] or [ej], and the characteristic reduction in unstressed syllables centralizing that /u/ to a schwa /ə/. V was just another way of writing U, just as J was just another way of writing I, but in a consonantal use that letter was probably realized as [β̞], as voiced bilabial approximant or fricative that English doesn’t have but which can be still be found in Spanish for intervocalic ‹v› (and ‹b›). That's necessarily been altered to a sound that English does actually have, the /v/ you see there.



The second “traditional” pronunciation would be the one you would expect a native speaker English with no knowledge of how any other language used the Latin letters for vowels. When Old English started spelling things using the Latin alphabet, they quite reasonably used the Latin letters corresponding to those sounds. But then when time mutated nearly all of those, the spelling never changed to match the pronunciation shifts.



That's because the Great Vowel Shift, which changed how English pronounces nearly all words, came about after we started writing words down using the Latin alphabet. So we ended up using the "wrong" values for almost all of these letters from the perspective of the rest of the world. Under the shift, ‹a› becomes /e/, ‹e› becomes /i/, ‹i› becomes the phonemic diphthong /ɑɪ/, and ‹o› often becomes /ɔ/ or even /ɒ/ or /ɑ/. (There are also a few consonant changes, like ‹c› no longer always representing /k/ but sometimes /s/ instead.)



I’ve never personally heard anyone use anything except the classical pronunciation of vade mecum, the way you might expect of an Italian speaker or a Spanish speaker, the one that the OED lists first. This might well be because I’ve also never heard it uttered by someone without any background in a Romance or other continental language, let alone in Latin proper.



It’s probably a markedly “learnèd” term these days, one you would only see in a more scholarly context. The OED places it is its frequency band three, along with such terms as ebullition and prelapsarian, contumacious and argentiferous. So even though you wouldn’t expect to find it in newspapers (apart from The Economist :) neither is it a term that should puzzle educated readers.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Apr 7 at 15:17









tchristtchrist

110k30295476




110k30295476







  • 1





    The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:27











  • I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

    – Andrew Leach
    Apr 7 at 19:54











  • @AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

    – Gábor
    Apr 7 at 22:01













  • 1





    The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:27











  • I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

    – Andrew Leach
    Apr 7 at 19:54











  • @AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

    – Gábor
    Apr 7 at 22:01








1




1





The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

– tylerharms
Apr 7 at 15:27





The distinction between those who study languages and have an understanding of the classical (pronounced "as it's spelled") version and those who know no other language but English and intuit their English phonetics on Latin words makes sense to me. So, it seems like Dictionary.com is pandering to those people.

– tylerharms
Apr 7 at 15:27













I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

– Andrew Leach
Apr 7 at 19:54





I've only heard it pronounced /ˌvædɪ ˈmɪːkəm/, and I learned Classical Latin at school. But it's no longer Latin; used in English it's an English expression (however rare).

– Andrew Leach
Apr 7 at 19:54













@AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

– Gábor
Apr 7 at 22:01






@AndrewLeach: Beacuse you probably learned Classical Latin as far as the contents go but with English pronunciation. It isn't how the rest of the world pronounces Latin, or how Latin was pronounced back in its day, or, actually, how English speaking people would have pronounced it centuries ago.

– Gábor
Apr 7 at 22:01














3














As Kate Bunting says, "vey-dee mee-kuh m" represents a pronunciation based on an old "traditional" system for pronouncing Latin. You can see further details in the Wikipedia article "Traditional English pronunciation of Latin".



Neither pronunciation uses Latin sounds



Neither this pronunciation, nor the alternative pronunciation that you suggested ("wah-day may kum") is the same as the pronunciation that scholars think was used in ancient times (the "reconstructed" pronunciation of Latin). A monolingual English speaker would find it difficult to produce the reconstructed pronunciation, because it includes a number of sounds that don't occur in most accents of English. For example, the sound of ē in Latin was almost certainly not the same as the sound that most English speakers use in the word "may": English speakers tend to make this vowel sound into a diphthong [eɪ], but Latin ē was a monophthong (pure vowel sound) [eː], more like the sound in Italian meno. At the end of a word, the letters -um are thought to have represented a nasalized vowel sound, without any final nasal consonant [m]. Putting it all together, the reconstructed Latin pronunciation of vāde mēcum would be something along the lines of [wade meːkũː], although the exact quality of the vowels is not certain (so it's possible that the [a] might be better transcribed as [ɑ], or the [e] as [ɛ], or the [ũ] as [ʊ̃]).



English students of Latin are sometimes taught an approximation of the reconstructed pronunciation that replaces some of the non-English sounds with sounds that English speakers find similar. But I think it's useful to keep in mind that the English sounds used in this "restored" pronunciation are part of Latin pronunciation only for modern English speakers. As far as I know, no Italian, German, or French speaker would ever use the English "may" diphthong sound to pronounce Latin ē. For more on the difference between the English "ay" sound and the IPA monophthong [e], see the following questions: Why is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?, What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?, Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?



Both pronunciations that you mention use English sounds to represent Latin; the difference lies in how the English sounds are mapped to Latin sounds/letters. The English sound [eɪ] represents Latin a in the "traditional" pronunciation system, and Latin ē (or sometimes ĕ) in the "restored" pronunciation system.



The "traditional" system is used for other terms



The "traditional" pronunciation system described in the linked Wikipedia article used to be more common (although it's not clear to me whether it was ever universal among English speakers: its alternatives also go back fairly far).



This "traditional" pronunciation is still not uncommon in some law Latin expressions: for example, stare decisis pronounced as "stairy de[saɪsɪs]". The traditional pronunciations of caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, and carpe diem do in fact exist and have been used, even if you may not have heard them: they are /ˈkeɪviæt/, /ˈsaɪni kweɪ ˈnɒn/, /ˈdræmətɪs pərˈsoʊniː/, and /ˈcarpi ˈdaɪəm/. It's also not that uncommon for the letter a to be pronounced as the [eɪ] ("ay") sound in nouns taken from Latin, such as hiatus, cloaca, meatus, foramen.



There is no general consensus about "how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English"; different people use different pronunciations, and it's up to you to decide who to imitate or which system to follow.






share|improve this answer

























  • I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago











  • And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago












  • @tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago











  • Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago
















3














As Kate Bunting says, "vey-dee mee-kuh m" represents a pronunciation based on an old "traditional" system for pronouncing Latin. You can see further details in the Wikipedia article "Traditional English pronunciation of Latin".



Neither pronunciation uses Latin sounds



Neither this pronunciation, nor the alternative pronunciation that you suggested ("wah-day may kum") is the same as the pronunciation that scholars think was used in ancient times (the "reconstructed" pronunciation of Latin). A monolingual English speaker would find it difficult to produce the reconstructed pronunciation, because it includes a number of sounds that don't occur in most accents of English. For example, the sound of ē in Latin was almost certainly not the same as the sound that most English speakers use in the word "may": English speakers tend to make this vowel sound into a diphthong [eɪ], but Latin ē was a monophthong (pure vowel sound) [eː], more like the sound in Italian meno. At the end of a word, the letters -um are thought to have represented a nasalized vowel sound, without any final nasal consonant [m]. Putting it all together, the reconstructed Latin pronunciation of vāde mēcum would be something along the lines of [wade meːkũː], although the exact quality of the vowels is not certain (so it's possible that the [a] might be better transcribed as [ɑ], or the [e] as [ɛ], or the [ũ] as [ʊ̃]).



English students of Latin are sometimes taught an approximation of the reconstructed pronunciation that replaces some of the non-English sounds with sounds that English speakers find similar. But I think it's useful to keep in mind that the English sounds used in this "restored" pronunciation are part of Latin pronunciation only for modern English speakers. As far as I know, no Italian, German, or French speaker would ever use the English "may" diphthong sound to pronounce Latin ē. For more on the difference between the English "ay" sound and the IPA monophthong [e], see the following questions: Why is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?, What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?, Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?



Both pronunciations that you mention use English sounds to represent Latin; the difference lies in how the English sounds are mapped to Latin sounds/letters. The English sound [eɪ] represents Latin a in the "traditional" pronunciation system, and Latin ē (or sometimes ĕ) in the "restored" pronunciation system.



The "traditional" system is used for other terms



The "traditional" pronunciation system described in the linked Wikipedia article used to be more common (although it's not clear to me whether it was ever universal among English speakers: its alternatives also go back fairly far).



This "traditional" pronunciation is still not uncommon in some law Latin expressions: for example, stare decisis pronounced as "stairy de[saɪsɪs]". The traditional pronunciations of caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, and carpe diem do in fact exist and have been used, even if you may not have heard them: they are /ˈkeɪviæt/, /ˈsaɪni kweɪ ˈnɒn/, /ˈdræmətɪs pərˈsoʊniː/, and /ˈcarpi ˈdaɪəm/. It's also not that uncommon for the letter a to be pronounced as the [eɪ] ("ay") sound in nouns taken from Latin, such as hiatus, cloaca, meatus, foramen.



There is no general consensus about "how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English"; different people use different pronunciations, and it's up to you to decide who to imitate or which system to follow.






share|improve this answer

























  • I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago











  • And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago












  • @tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago











  • Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago














3












3








3







As Kate Bunting says, "vey-dee mee-kuh m" represents a pronunciation based on an old "traditional" system for pronouncing Latin. You can see further details in the Wikipedia article "Traditional English pronunciation of Latin".



Neither pronunciation uses Latin sounds



Neither this pronunciation, nor the alternative pronunciation that you suggested ("wah-day may kum") is the same as the pronunciation that scholars think was used in ancient times (the "reconstructed" pronunciation of Latin). A monolingual English speaker would find it difficult to produce the reconstructed pronunciation, because it includes a number of sounds that don't occur in most accents of English. For example, the sound of ē in Latin was almost certainly not the same as the sound that most English speakers use in the word "may": English speakers tend to make this vowel sound into a diphthong [eɪ], but Latin ē was a monophthong (pure vowel sound) [eː], more like the sound in Italian meno. At the end of a word, the letters -um are thought to have represented a nasalized vowel sound, without any final nasal consonant [m]. Putting it all together, the reconstructed Latin pronunciation of vāde mēcum would be something along the lines of [wade meːkũː], although the exact quality of the vowels is not certain (so it's possible that the [a] might be better transcribed as [ɑ], or the [e] as [ɛ], or the [ũ] as [ʊ̃]).



English students of Latin are sometimes taught an approximation of the reconstructed pronunciation that replaces some of the non-English sounds with sounds that English speakers find similar. But I think it's useful to keep in mind that the English sounds used in this "restored" pronunciation are part of Latin pronunciation only for modern English speakers. As far as I know, no Italian, German, or French speaker would ever use the English "may" diphthong sound to pronounce Latin ē. For more on the difference between the English "ay" sound and the IPA monophthong [e], see the following questions: Why is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?, What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?, Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?



Both pronunciations that you mention use English sounds to represent Latin; the difference lies in how the English sounds are mapped to Latin sounds/letters. The English sound [eɪ] represents Latin a in the "traditional" pronunciation system, and Latin ē (or sometimes ĕ) in the "restored" pronunciation system.



The "traditional" system is used for other terms



The "traditional" pronunciation system described in the linked Wikipedia article used to be more common (although it's not clear to me whether it was ever universal among English speakers: its alternatives also go back fairly far).



This "traditional" pronunciation is still not uncommon in some law Latin expressions: for example, stare decisis pronounced as "stairy de[saɪsɪs]". The traditional pronunciations of caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, and carpe diem do in fact exist and have been used, even if you may not have heard them: they are /ˈkeɪviæt/, /ˈsaɪni kweɪ ˈnɒn/, /ˈdræmətɪs pərˈsoʊniː/, and /ˈcarpi ˈdaɪəm/. It's also not that uncommon for the letter a to be pronounced as the [eɪ] ("ay") sound in nouns taken from Latin, such as hiatus, cloaca, meatus, foramen.



There is no general consensus about "how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English"; different people use different pronunciations, and it's up to you to decide who to imitate or which system to follow.






share|improve this answer















As Kate Bunting says, "vey-dee mee-kuh m" represents a pronunciation based on an old "traditional" system for pronouncing Latin. You can see further details in the Wikipedia article "Traditional English pronunciation of Latin".



Neither pronunciation uses Latin sounds



Neither this pronunciation, nor the alternative pronunciation that you suggested ("wah-day may kum") is the same as the pronunciation that scholars think was used in ancient times (the "reconstructed" pronunciation of Latin). A monolingual English speaker would find it difficult to produce the reconstructed pronunciation, because it includes a number of sounds that don't occur in most accents of English. For example, the sound of ē in Latin was almost certainly not the same as the sound that most English speakers use in the word "may": English speakers tend to make this vowel sound into a diphthong [eɪ], but Latin ē was a monophthong (pure vowel sound) [eː], more like the sound in Italian meno. At the end of a word, the letters -um are thought to have represented a nasalized vowel sound, without any final nasal consonant [m]. Putting it all together, the reconstructed Latin pronunciation of vāde mēcum would be something along the lines of [wade meːkũː], although the exact quality of the vowels is not certain (so it's possible that the [a] might be better transcribed as [ɑ], or the [e] as [ɛ], or the [ũ] as [ʊ̃]).



English students of Latin are sometimes taught an approximation of the reconstructed pronunciation that replaces some of the non-English sounds with sounds that English speakers find similar. But I think it's useful to keep in mind that the English sounds used in this "restored" pronunciation are part of Latin pronunciation only for modern English speakers. As far as I know, no Italian, German, or French speaker would ever use the English "may" diphthong sound to pronounce Latin ē. For more on the difference between the English "ay" sound and the IPA monophthong [e], see the following questions: Why is /e/ generally transcribed as 'ay'?, What rules govern uniform mispronounciation of romance languages?, Why is the pronunciation of French loanwords with the ending é botched?



Both pronunciations that you mention use English sounds to represent Latin; the difference lies in how the English sounds are mapped to Latin sounds/letters. The English sound [eɪ] represents Latin a in the "traditional" pronunciation system, and Latin ē (or sometimes ĕ) in the "restored" pronunciation system.



The "traditional" system is used for other terms



The "traditional" pronunciation system described in the linked Wikipedia article used to be more common (although it's not clear to me whether it was ever universal among English speakers: its alternatives also go back fairly far).



This "traditional" pronunciation is still not uncommon in some law Latin expressions: for example, stare decisis pronounced as "stairy de[saɪsɪs]". The traditional pronunciations of caveat, sine qua non, dramatis personae, and carpe diem do in fact exist and have been used, even if you may not have heard them: they are /ˈkeɪviæt/, /ˈsaɪni kweɪ ˈnɒn/, /ˈdræmətɪs pərˈsoʊniː/, and /ˈcarpi ˈdaɪəm/. It's also not that uncommon for the letter a to be pronounced as the [eɪ] ("ay") sound in nouns taken from Latin, such as hiatus, cloaca, meatus, foramen.



There is no general consensus about "how faithful should one be in pronouncing Latin words in English"; different people use different pronunciations, and it's up to you to decide who to imitate or which system to follow.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago

























answered 2 days ago









sumelicsumelic

50.5k8121227




50.5k8121227












  • I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago











  • And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago












  • @tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago











  • Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago


















  • I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago











  • And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago












  • @tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

    – sumelic
    2 days ago











  • Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

    – tchrist
    2 days ago

















I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

– tchrist
2 days ago





I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to mimic foreign accents, which is all that you're talking about here when you talk about the tiny phonetic diphthong effects in which all English vowels have a tiny little non-phonemic down-glide at the end of them. This is continually over-emphasized here and it's silly. Telling English speakers they cannot make those tiny little glides is just as pointless as telling them that that they aren't allowed to aspirate unvoiced stops at the front of stressed syllables. It's unnatural because you're talking about things that are alien to English.

– tchrist
2 days ago













And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

– tchrist
2 days ago






And you don't have to apply the GVS to primary stressed vowels. A can still be /a/, E can still be /e/, I can still be /i/, O can still be /o/. Don't worry about phonetic offglides that can never change which phoneme is said.

– tchrist
2 days ago














@tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

– sumelic
2 days ago





@tchrist: Different English speakers diphthongize to different extents, so that note might not apply to all of them, but diphthongization does seem to be a fairly noticeable feature of English pronunciation to native speakers of other languages. And in the context of Latin or Italian, it's phonemically relevant, because there is a distinction between [e] or [ɛ] (written as "e") and diphthongal [ei] or [ɛi] (written as "ei"). To a Japanese speaker, the distinction between an L sound and an R sound is tiny and non-phonemic, but the lack of a such a distinction can be quite noticeable to others.

– sumelic
2 days ago













Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

– tchrist
2 days ago






Italian has diphthongal /ei/, but Latin did not, and so it does not matter here. I'm a Romance speaker with formal training in the phonetics and phonology of the language, and I am perfectly aware that words like estés and estéis in Spanish sound different, and critically that the first is far closer to the FACE vowel in English than the second one is. You really, really need to listen to an actual /ei/ phonemic diphthong in Italian or Spanish one of these day, not the tiny phonetic versions of English. They are not even close, and they are not comparable.

– tchrist
2 days ago












2














English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf



However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.






share|improve this answer























  • That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 15:05











  • This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:18











  • "Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

    – JeremyC
    Apr 7 at 22:01











  • I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

    – Kate Bunting
    2 days ago
















2














English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf



However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.






share|improve this answer























  • That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 15:05











  • This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:18











  • "Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

    – JeremyC
    Apr 7 at 22:01











  • I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

    – Kate Bunting
    2 days ago














2












2








2







English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf



However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.






share|improve this answer













English speakers used to have a conventional way of pronouncing Latin, which was baffling to Latin speakers from continental Europe. It survives in expressions like vice versa and via (as in 'by way of'), and in some scientific and legal terminology. See https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0860C6625BE5A0E45FD58A18797E6FB/S175027051200005Xa.pdf/the-english-pronunciation-of-latin-its-rise-and-fall.pdf



However, my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, 1992 revision, tells you to pronounce vade mecum with the 'ah' sound.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Apr 7 at 14:30









Kate BuntingKate Bunting

6,65631518




6,65631518












  • That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 15:05











  • This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:18











  • "Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

    – JeremyC
    Apr 7 at 22:01











  • I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

    – Kate Bunting
    2 days ago


















  • That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

    – Lambie
    Apr 7 at 15:05











  • This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

    – tylerharms
    Apr 7 at 15:18











  • "Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

    – JeremyC
    Apr 7 at 22:01











  • I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

    – Kate Bunting
    2 days ago

















That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

– Lambie
Apr 7 at 15:05





That paper is really something but does not mention the consonant v at all....which is sort of odd given what it is about.

– Lambie
Apr 7 at 15:05













This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

– tylerharms
Apr 7 at 15:18





This source is interesting. Any chance you can distill some of the essential elements down into your answer to explain what principles of pronunciation the "restored" system acknowledges.

– tylerharms
Apr 7 at 15:18













"Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

– JeremyC
Apr 7 at 22:01





"Used to" is correct but a bit vague as to actual timing. As recently as 1966, I heard a second-year student of classics at Cambridge, who had previously attended the ancient Westminster School, advise a first-year man from the same school that he should use what @KateBunting rightly calls the conventional English way of pronouncing Latin. Both were first class scholars of Latin.

– JeremyC
Apr 7 at 22:01













I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

– Kate Bunting
2 days ago






I learned Latin at school in the mid-60s and we would have said wah-day maykum. Since then, as an amateur singer I have become used to the Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin (vah-day). The paper gives some snippets of (mainly 19th century) verse which require the traditional pronunciation to rhyme, including an example of vaydee meekum (to rhyme with seek 'em).

– Kate Bunting
2 days ago


















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대한민국 목차 국명 지리 역사 정치 국방 경제 사회 문화 국제 순위 관련 항목 각주 외부 링크 둘러보기 메뉴북위 37° 34′ 08″ 동경 126° 58′ 36″ / 북위 37.568889° 동경 126.976667°  / 37.568889; 126.976667ehThe Korean Repository문단을 편집문단을 편집추가해Clarkson PLC 사Report for Selected Countries and Subjects-Korea“Human Development Index and its components: P.198”“http://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C%EB%AF%BC%EA%B5%AD%EA%B5%AD%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95”"한국은 국제법상 한반도 유일 합법정부 아니다" - 오마이뉴스 모바일Report for Selected Countries and Subjects: South Korea격동의 역사와 함께한 조선일보 90년 : 조선일보 인수해 혁신시킨 신석우, 임시정부 때는 '대한민국' 국호(國號) 정해《우리가 몰랐던 우리 역사: 나라 이름의 비밀을 찾아가는 역사 여행》“남북 공식호칭 ‘남한’‘북한’으로 쓴다”“Corea 대 Korea, 누가 이긴 거야?”국내기후자료 - 한국[김대중 前 대통령 서거] 과감한 구조개혁 'DJ노믹스'로 최단기간 환란극복 :: 네이버 뉴스“이라크 "韓-쿠르드 유전개발 MOU 승인 안해"(종합)”“해외 우리국민 추방사례 43%가 일본”차기전차 K2'흑표'의 세계 최고 전력 분석, 쿠키뉴스 엄기영, 2007-03-02두산인프라, 헬기잡는 장갑차 'K21'...내년부터 공급, 고뉴스 이대준, 2008-10-30과거 내용 찾기mk 뉴스 - 구매력 기준으로 보면 한국 1인당 소득 3만弗과거 내용 찾기"The N-11: More Than an Acronym"Archived조선일보 최우석, 2008-11-01Global 500 2008: Countries - South Korea“몇년째 '시한폭탄'... 가계부채, 올해는 터질까”가구당 부채 5000만원 처음 넘어서“‘빚’으로 내몰리는 사회.. 위기의 가계대출”“[경제365] 공공부문 부채 급증…800조 육박”“"소득 양극화 다소 완화...불평등은 여전"”“공정사회·공생발전 한참 멀었네”iSuppli,08年2QのDRAMシェア・ランキングを発表(08/8/11)South Korea dominates shipbuilding industry | Stock Market News & Stocks to Watch from StraightStocks한국 자동차 생산, 3년 연속 세계 5위자동차수출 '현대-삼성 웃고 기아-대우-쌍용은 울고' 과거 내용 찾기동반성장위 창립 1주년 맞아Archived"중기적합 3개업종 합의 무시한 채 선정"李대통령, 사업 무분별 확장 소상공인 생계 위협 질타삼성-LG, 서민업종인 빵·분식사업 잇따라 철수상생은 뒷전…SSM ‘몸집 불리기’ 혈안Archived“경부고속도에 '아시안하이웨이' 표지판”'철의 실크로드' 앞서 '말(言)의 실크로드'부터, 프레시안 정창현, 2008-10-01“'서울 지하철은 안전한가?'”“서울시 “올해 안에 모든 지하철역 스크린도어 설치””“부산지하철 1,2호선 승강장 안전펜스 설치 완료”“전교조, 정부 노조 통계서 처음 빠져”“[Weekly BIZ] 도요타 '제로 이사회'가 리콜 사태 불러들였다”“S Korea slams high tuition costs”““정치가 여론 양극화 부채질… 합리주의 절실””“〈"`촛불집회'는 민주주의의 질적 변화 상징"〉”““촛불집회가 민주주의 왜곡 초래””“국민 65%, "한국 노사관계 대립적"”“한국 국가경쟁력 27위‥노사관계 '꼴찌'”“제대로 형성되지 않은 대한민국 이념지형”“[신년기획-갈등의 시대] 갈등지수 OECD 4위…사회적 손실 GDP 27% 무려 300조”“2012 총선-대선의 키워드는 '국민과 소통'”“한국 삶의 질 27위, 2000년과 2008년 연속 하위권 머물러”“[해피 코리아] 행복점수 68점…해외 평가선 '낙제점'”“한국 어린이·청소년 행복지수 3년 연속 OECD ‘꼴찌’”“한국 이혼율 OECD중 8위”“[통계청] 한국 이혼율 OECD 4위”“오피니언 [이렇게 생각한다] `부부의 날` 에 돌아본 이혼율 1위 한국”“Suicide Rates by Country, Global Health Observatory Data Repository.”“1. 또 다른 차별”“오피니언 [편집자에게] '왕따'와 '패거리 정치' 심리는 닮은꼴”“[미래한국리포트] 무한경쟁에 빠진 대한민국”“대학생 98% "외모가 경쟁력이라는 말 동의"”“특급호텔 웨딩·200만원대 유모차… "남보다 더…" 호화病, 고질병 됐다”“[스트레스 공화국] ① 경쟁사회, 스트레스 쌓인다”““매일 30여명 자살 한국, 의사보다 무속인에…””“"자살 부르는 '우울증', 환자 중 85% 치료 안 받아"”“정신병원을 가다”“대한민국도 ‘묻지마 범죄’,안전지대 아니다”“유엔 "학생 '성적 지향'에 따른 차별 금지하라"”“유엔아동권리위원회 보고서 및 번역본 원문”“고졸 성공스토리 담은 '제빵왕 김탁구' 드라마 나온다”“‘빛 좋은 개살구’ 고졸 취업…실습 대신 착취”원본 문서“정신건강, 사회적 편견부터 고쳐드립니다”‘소통’과 ‘행복’에 목 마른 사회가 잠들어 있던 ‘심리학’ 깨웠다“[포토] 사유리-곽금주 교수의 유쾌한 심리상담”“"올해 한국인 평균 영화관람횟수 세계 1위"(종합)”“[게임연중기획] 게임은 문화다-여가활동 1순위 게임”“영화속 ‘영어 지상주의’ …“왠지 씁쓸한데””“2월 `신문 부수 인증기관` 지정..방송법 후속작업”“무료신문 성장동력 ‘차별성’과 ‘갈등해소’”대한민국 국회 법률지식정보시스템"Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project: South Korea"“amp;vwcd=MT_ZTITLE&path=인구·가구%20>%20인구총조사%20>%20인구부문%20>%20 총조사인구(2005)%20>%20전수부문&oper_YN=Y&item=&keyword=종교별%20인구& amp;lang_mode=kor&list_id= 2005년 통계청 인구 총조사”원본 문서“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2009)”“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2014)”Archived“한국, `부분적 언론자유국' 강등〈프리덤하우스〉”“국경없는기자회 "한국, 인터넷감시 대상국"”“한국, 조선산업 1위 유지(S. Korea Stays Top Shipbuilding Nation) RZD-Partner Portal”원본 문서“한국, 4년 만에 ‘선박건조 1위’”“옛 마산시,인터넷속도 세계 1위”“"한국 초고속 인터넷망 세계1위"”“인터넷·휴대폰 요금, 외국보다 훨씬 비싸”“한국 관세행정 6년 연속 세계 '1위'”“한국 교통사고 사망자 수 OECD 회원국 중 2위”“결핵 후진국' 한국, 환자가 급증한 이유는”“수술은 신중해야… 자칫하면 생명 위협”대한민국분류대한민국의 지도대한민국 정부대표 다국어포털대한민국 전자정부대한민국 국회한국방송공사about korea and information korea브리태니커 백과사전(한국편)론리플래닛의 정보(한국편)CIA의 세계 정보(한국편)마리암 부디아 (Mariam Budia),『한국: 하늘이 내린 한 폭의 그림』, 서울: 트랜스라틴 19호 (2012년 3월)대한민국ehehehehehehehehehehehehehehWorldCat132441370n791268020000 0001 2308 81034078029-6026373548cb11863345f(데이터)00573706ge128495