Would it be possible to rearrange a dragon's flight muscle to somewhat circumvent the square-cube law? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon forelimb placementWhat would happen if magic was constrained by the second law of thermodynamicsWhat issues as a result of square-cube law would a human scaled to the size of an ant face?Would it be possible to grow bamboo on the Earth's moon?Dragon's Blood - If it was a realistic animal what would be the color of its blood?What is the hardest wood possible, and where would this be a practical material?What would be the most addictive substance it is possible to make?What would be the possible benefits of pointed ears?Would it be possible to farm the energy from pulsars?Would a planet the size of Mercury with the gravity of Earth be scientifically possible?Giving dragons more flight muscle

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Would it be possible to rearrange a dragon's flight muscle to somewhat circumvent the square-cube law?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)
The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon forelimb placementWhat would happen if magic was constrained by the second law of thermodynamicsWhat issues as a result of square-cube law would a human scaled to the size of an ant face?Would it be possible to grow bamboo on the Earth's moon?Dragon's Blood - If it was a realistic animal what would be the color of its blood?What is the hardest wood possible, and where would this be a practical material?What would be the most addictive substance it is possible to make?What would be the possible benefits of pointed ears?Would it be possible to farm the energy from pulsars?Would a planet the size of Mercury with the gravity of Earth be scientifically possible?Giving dragons more flight muscle










8












$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their (the wings') anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the wings' pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    Apr 13 at 18:34










  • $begingroup$
    Sure and then the wing can move a grand total of half an inch, cross section determines power, length determines how far it can move.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    Apr 14 at 18:07










  • $begingroup$
    @John Are you trying to say a compromise isn't possible?
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 15 at 5:41










  • $begingroup$
    I am saying getting more power in return for shorter movement does not actually help you fly. the total weight of the muscle needed to get the same amount of lift does not change.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is like asking is their any nozzle I can put on a bottle rocket that will let it lift a freight car to the moon, the available energy is just insufficient.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago















8












$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their (the wings') anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the wings' pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    Apr 13 at 18:34










  • $begingroup$
    Sure and then the wing can move a grand total of half an inch, cross section determines power, length determines how far it can move.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    Apr 14 at 18:07










  • $begingroup$
    @John Are you trying to say a compromise isn't possible?
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 15 at 5:41










  • $begingroup$
    I am saying getting more power in return for shorter movement does not actually help you fly. the total weight of the muscle needed to get the same amount of lift does not change.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is like asking is their any nozzle I can put on a bottle rocket that will let it lift a freight car to the moon, the available energy is just insufficient.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago













8












8








8





$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their (the wings') anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the wings' pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their (the wings') anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the wings' pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.







science-based dragons bio-mechanics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited Apr 14 at 17:40







Mephistopheles

















asked Apr 13 at 15:14









MephistophelesMephistopheles

2,2412935




2,2412935











  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    Apr 13 at 18:34










  • $begingroup$
    Sure and then the wing can move a grand total of half an inch, cross section determines power, length determines how far it can move.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    Apr 14 at 18:07










  • $begingroup$
    @John Are you trying to say a compromise isn't possible?
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 15 at 5:41










  • $begingroup$
    I am saying getting more power in return for shorter movement does not actually help you fly. the total weight of the muscle needed to get the same amount of lift does not change.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is like asking is their any nozzle I can put on a bottle rocket that will let it lift a freight car to the moon, the available energy is just insufficient.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago
















  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    Apr 13 at 18:34










  • $begingroup$
    Sure and then the wing can move a grand total of half an inch, cross section determines power, length determines how far it can move.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    Apr 14 at 18:07










  • $begingroup$
    @John Are you trying to say a compromise isn't possible?
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 15 at 5:41










  • $begingroup$
    I am saying getting more power in return for shorter movement does not actually help you fly. the total weight of the muscle needed to get the same amount of lift does not change.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago










  • $begingroup$
    This is like asking is their any nozzle I can put on a bottle rocket that will let it lift a freight car to the moon, the available energy is just insufficient.
    $endgroup$
    – John
    2 days ago















$begingroup$
Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
Apr 13 at 18:34




$begingroup$
Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
Apr 13 at 18:34












$begingroup$
Sure and then the wing can move a grand total of half an inch, cross section determines power, length determines how far it can move.
$endgroup$
– John
Apr 14 at 18:07




$begingroup$
Sure and then the wing can move a grand total of half an inch, cross section determines power, length determines how far it can move.
$endgroup$
– John
Apr 14 at 18:07












$begingroup$
@John Are you trying to say a compromise isn't possible?
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
Apr 15 at 5:41




$begingroup$
@John Are you trying to say a compromise isn't possible?
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
Apr 15 at 5:41












$begingroup$
I am saying getting more power in return for shorter movement does not actually help you fly. the total weight of the muscle needed to get the same amount of lift does not change.
$endgroup$
– John
2 days ago




$begingroup$
I am saying getting more power in return for shorter movement does not actually help you fly. the total weight of the muscle needed to get the same amount of lift does not change.
$endgroup$
– John
2 days ago












$begingroup$
This is like asking is their any nozzle I can put on a bottle rocket that will let it lift a freight car to the moon, the available energy is just insufficient.
$endgroup$
– John
2 days ago




$begingroup$
This is like asking is their any nozzle I can put on a bottle rocket that will let it lift a freight car to the moon, the available energy is just insufficient.
$endgroup$
– John
2 days ago










6 Answers
6






active

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When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 13 at 15:36






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    Apr 13 at 16:05






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    Apr 13 at 17:38






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    Apr 13 at 21:12










  • $begingroup$
    @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
    $endgroup$
    – Joshua
    Apr 14 at 0:04


















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$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 13 at 17:37






  • 4




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    Apr 13 at 17:49










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 13 at 17:51






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    Apr 13 at 20:34


















0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 13 at 20:50










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    Apr 13 at 21:04










  • $begingroup$
    Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    Apr 13 at 22:01


















0












$begingroup$

You could look at the pterosaur called Quetzalcoatlus. It is thought to be the largest flying animal ever, with a wingspan estimated to be 10-11 m. Modern estimates put its weight at 200-250 kg. Earlier estimates put their wingspan at as much as 21 m, so we must assume that this much is possible for such a beast - and a dragon with a 20 m wingspan and a weight of (say) 400 kg would be quite impressive.



There are differing theories as to how well they flew, but a recent computer model suggests that Quetzalcoatlus was capable of flight up to 80 mph for 7 to 10 days at altitudes of 15,000 ft.



Quetzalcoatlus was built very differently from a dragon, with wings far to the back (see figure), but the important thing is that a flying of that size has existed, and hence, a dragon of similar size should be possible without bending physics. If your dragon is firebreathing, it could possibly blow fire beneath itself to create brief thermals for quick lift-me-ups.


enter image description here






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




















    0












    $begingroup$

    No, the square cube law applies to many aspects of flight, the wings have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animals.



    As for changing the muscles it will not help, making a muscle shorter also makes the distance it can travel, that is the length change during contraction, smaller, your muscles will be super powerful but move all of half an inch. Which means your dragon can't really flap its wings. trading length for thickness doesn't gain you any flight capabilities. the total lift generated does not improve by making the muscles shorter and wider.



    Making the bones stronger helps by reducing the overall weight of animal and reducing the weight of wings specifically, a lighter wing requires less force to move the same amount of air (because the muscles have to move the wing as well as the air). Because of this the gains you can get are pretty small, not insignificant but not all that great either. The wings still have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animal, that is the real killer about the square cube law, the mass of the animal and the amount of air you need to displace to counteract it.



    The power to mass relationship of muscles is a pretty hard limit, birds have done everything they can while keeping the muscles functional. You can have system to reclaim so of that energy (kangaroo tails) but the initial energy still needs to come from the muscles. As long as dragons are carrying around superfluous limbs they will be hard pressed to even reach the same size as birds.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$












    • $begingroup$
      Okay, time for plan B.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 14 at 18:32










    • $begingroup$
      But before I do that, what about levers?
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 14 at 18:39










    • $begingroup$
      muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
      $endgroup$
      – John
      Apr 14 at 22:46


















    0












    $begingroup$

    The main problems with a big dragon are, by increasing order of importance:



    • Muscle power density

    There can be linear motors (in a broad sense, what muscles are) that are powerful enough per mass or volume. For an unusual evolution that solved the latter problems, this would be straightforward enough. As we'll see later, this is not even the limiting factor in human strength under normal circumstances.



    • Muscle strength

    The muscle has to not tear itself and its supports apart (something human muscles will do if you use them at max power). Look up tetanus symptoms - or not, muscles at full power are horrific stuff. But there are materials stronger than human tissues that exist, and that could reinforce dragon tissues. Carbon nanotubes and graphene are rather popular choices, nowadays. Aggregated diamond nanorods can make for pretty nice bones as well.



    • Fuel intake

    Muscles need oxygen and sugar (or whatever this organism may use). Those are carried by blood. Sugar level could be increases quite a lot with the right biochemistery, as long as it can metabolize its reserves (probably fat) fast enough to keep up. Oxygen is a bit trickier. Blood could carry more, but oxygen intake is limited by the lungs. They would need not only big ones, but probably something more efficient like a biological supercharger. Waste products like carbon dioxyde need to be removed, but solutions to intake should double as exhaust here.



    • Heat management

    Probably the most critical, and often considered the biggest limiter in muscle strength for large organism, due to the square-cube law: muscle volume (and theoretically, strength, but also waste heat generation) goes up with the volume, while muscle surface (and its ability to evacuate waste heat) goes up with the surface. So the dragon will need an extremely efficient circulatory system to get rid of heat - you won't get much better than water, so you will have to pump more blood faster and through more vessels. This is both for heat and fuel intake, in fact, as fuel intake is also limited by surface.



    Then, this heat will have to go somewhere. The aforementioned supercharger would help, but also the gigantic wings that a dragon needs to fly anyway, and that will make for nice radiators - wings must also grow larger due to the square-cube law. you can even have fun and have the supercharger pointed down, with its scalding hot exhaust a bit similar to a breadth weapon.



    Increased perspiration through, especially through the supercharger, may be necessary. There could also be small cold nodules in the muscles to help get rid of heat during a brief, intense effort, though designing such biological system to be small and light enough may be a challenge.




    There will have to be a balance between impractically large wings (to better glide) and impractically powerful muscles (for powered flight), depending on how efficient those systems are and how strong dragon tissue is. Anyway, this may either require artificial design or a very unusual evolution, but those may help grow dragons just a bit larger. I suspect the dragon would only be capable of punctual intense effort to take flight, and then mostly glide, like the extinct Quetzalcoatlus mentioned in the answer of Klaus Æ. Mogensen.






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      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

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      6 Answers
      6






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

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      active

      oldest

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      5












      $begingroup$

      When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



      This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



      How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



      Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 2




        $begingroup$
        1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 15:36






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        Apr 13 at 16:05






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
        $endgroup$
        – Spencer
        Apr 13 at 17:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:12










      • $begingroup$
        @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
        $endgroup$
        – Joshua
        Apr 14 at 0:04















      5












      $begingroup$

      When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



      This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



      How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



      Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 2




        $begingroup$
        1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 15:36






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        Apr 13 at 16:05






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
        $endgroup$
        – Spencer
        Apr 13 at 17:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:12










      • $begingroup$
        @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
        $endgroup$
        – Joshua
        Apr 14 at 0:04













      5












      5








      5





      $begingroup$

      When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



      This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



      How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



      Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



      This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



      How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



      Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Apr 13 at 15:28









      L.DutchL.Dutch

      92.1k29213442




      92.1k29213442







      • 2




        $begingroup$
        1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 15:36






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        Apr 13 at 16:05






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
        $endgroup$
        – Spencer
        Apr 13 at 17:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:12










      • $begingroup$
        @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
        $endgroup$
        – Joshua
        Apr 14 at 0:04












      • 2




        $begingroup$
        1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 15:36






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        Apr 13 at 16:05






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
        $endgroup$
        – Spencer
        Apr 13 at 17:38






      • 2




        $begingroup$
        This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:12










      • $begingroup$
        @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
        $endgroup$
        – Joshua
        Apr 14 at 0:04







      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 15:36




      $begingroup$
      1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 15:36




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
      $endgroup$
      – JBH
      Apr 13 at 16:05




      $begingroup$
      Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
      $endgroup$
      – JBH
      Apr 13 at 16:05




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
      $endgroup$
      – Spencer
      Apr 13 at 17:38




      $begingroup$
      @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
      $endgroup$
      – Spencer
      Apr 13 at 17:38




      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
      $endgroup$
      – Jan Hudec
      Apr 13 at 21:12




      $begingroup$
      This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
      $endgroup$
      – Jan Hudec
      Apr 13 at 21:12












      $begingroup$
      @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
      $endgroup$
      – Joshua
      Apr 14 at 0:04




      $begingroup$
      @JanHudec: That explains a lot of things. Thanks.
      $endgroup$
      – Joshua
      Apr 14 at 0:04











      3












      $begingroup$

      Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



      But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




      Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
      low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
      accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
      from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
      whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
      producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
      their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
      as 80 times per second.




      Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



      One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:37






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
        $endgroup$
        – Willk
        Apr 13 at 17:49










      • $begingroup$
        U wot? speak english!
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 20:34















      3












      $begingroup$

      Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



      But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




      Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
      low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
      accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
      from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
      whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
      producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
      their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
      as 80 times per second.




      Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



      One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:37






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
        $endgroup$
        – Willk
        Apr 13 at 17:49










      • $begingroup$
        U wot? speak english!
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 20:34













      3












      3








      3





      $begingroup$

      Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



      But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




      Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
      low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
      accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
      from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
      whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
      producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
      their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
      as 80 times per second.




      Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



      One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



      But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




      Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
      low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
      accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
      from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
      whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
      producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
      their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
      as 80 times per second.




      Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



      One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Apr 13 at 17:25









      WillkWillk

      118k28224495




      118k28224495







      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:37






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
        $endgroup$
        – Willk
        Apr 13 at 17:49










      • $begingroup$
        U wot? speak english!
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 20:34












      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:37






      • 4




        $begingroup$
        @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
        $endgroup$
        – Willk
        Apr 13 at 17:49










      • $begingroup$
        U wot? speak english!
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 17:51






      • 3




        $begingroup$
        The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 20:34







      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 17:37




      $begingroup$
      Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 17:37




      4




      4




      $begingroup$
      @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
      $endgroup$
      – Willk
      Apr 13 at 17:49




      $begingroup$
      @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
      $endgroup$
      – Willk
      Apr 13 at 17:49












      $begingroup$
      U wot? speak english!
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 17:51




      $begingroup$
      U wot? speak english!
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 17:51




      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
      $endgroup$
      – Jan Hudec
      Apr 13 at 20:34




      $begingroup$
      The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
      $endgroup$
      – Jan Hudec
      Apr 13 at 20:34











      0












      $begingroup$


      how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




      The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



      Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



      Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 20:50










      • $begingroup$
        Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:04










      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 22:01















      0












      $begingroup$


      how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




      The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



      Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



      Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$












      • $begingroup$
        I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 20:50










      • $begingroup$
        Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:04










      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 22:01













      0












      0








      0





      $begingroup$


      how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




      The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



      Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



      Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$




      how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




      The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



      Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



      Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Apr 13 at 20:46









      RenanRenan

      53.6k15121267




      53.6k15121267











      • $begingroup$
        I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 20:50










      • $begingroup$
        Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:04










      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 22:01
















      • $begingroup$
        I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 20:50










      • $begingroup$
        Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
        $endgroup$
        – Jan Hudec
        Apr 13 at 21:04










      • $begingroup$
        Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
        $endgroup$
        – Mephistopheles
        Apr 13 at 22:01















      $begingroup$
      I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 20:50




      $begingroup$
      I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 20:50












      $begingroup$
      Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
      $endgroup$
      – Jan Hudec
      Apr 13 at 21:04




      $begingroup$
      Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
      $endgroup$
      – Jan Hudec
      Apr 13 at 21:04












      $begingroup$
      Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 22:01




      $begingroup$
      Sorry, I guess I should've said the other pectoralis major. There's one for the foreleg and one for the wings.
      $endgroup$
      – Mephistopheles
      Apr 13 at 22:01











      0












      $begingroup$

      You could look at the pterosaur called Quetzalcoatlus. It is thought to be the largest flying animal ever, with a wingspan estimated to be 10-11 m. Modern estimates put its weight at 200-250 kg. Earlier estimates put their wingspan at as much as 21 m, so we must assume that this much is possible for such a beast - and a dragon with a 20 m wingspan and a weight of (say) 400 kg would be quite impressive.



      There are differing theories as to how well they flew, but a recent computer model suggests that Quetzalcoatlus was capable of flight up to 80 mph for 7 to 10 days at altitudes of 15,000 ft.



      Quetzalcoatlus was built very differently from a dragon, with wings far to the back (see figure), but the important thing is that a flying of that size has existed, and hence, a dragon of similar size should be possible without bending physics. If your dragon is firebreathing, it could possibly blow fire beneath itself to create brief thermals for quick lift-me-ups.


      enter image description here






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$

















        0












        $begingroup$

        You could look at the pterosaur called Quetzalcoatlus. It is thought to be the largest flying animal ever, with a wingspan estimated to be 10-11 m. Modern estimates put its weight at 200-250 kg. Earlier estimates put their wingspan at as much as 21 m, so we must assume that this much is possible for such a beast - and a dragon with a 20 m wingspan and a weight of (say) 400 kg would be quite impressive.



        There are differing theories as to how well they flew, but a recent computer model suggests that Quetzalcoatlus was capable of flight up to 80 mph for 7 to 10 days at altitudes of 15,000 ft.



        Quetzalcoatlus was built very differently from a dragon, with wings far to the back (see figure), but the important thing is that a flying of that size has existed, and hence, a dragon of similar size should be possible without bending physics. If your dragon is firebreathing, it could possibly blow fire beneath itself to create brief thermals for quick lift-me-ups.


        enter image description here






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$















          0












          0








          0





          $begingroup$

          You could look at the pterosaur called Quetzalcoatlus. It is thought to be the largest flying animal ever, with a wingspan estimated to be 10-11 m. Modern estimates put its weight at 200-250 kg. Earlier estimates put their wingspan at as much as 21 m, so we must assume that this much is possible for such a beast - and a dragon with a 20 m wingspan and a weight of (say) 400 kg would be quite impressive.



          There are differing theories as to how well they flew, but a recent computer model suggests that Quetzalcoatlus was capable of flight up to 80 mph for 7 to 10 days at altitudes of 15,000 ft.



          Quetzalcoatlus was built very differently from a dragon, with wings far to the back (see figure), but the important thing is that a flying of that size has existed, and hence, a dragon of similar size should be possible without bending physics. If your dragon is firebreathing, it could possibly blow fire beneath itself to create brief thermals for quick lift-me-ups.


          enter image description here






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          You could look at the pterosaur called Quetzalcoatlus. It is thought to be the largest flying animal ever, with a wingspan estimated to be 10-11 m. Modern estimates put its weight at 200-250 kg. Earlier estimates put their wingspan at as much as 21 m, so we must assume that this much is possible for such a beast - and a dragon with a 20 m wingspan and a weight of (say) 400 kg would be quite impressive.



          There are differing theories as to how well they flew, but a recent computer model suggests that Quetzalcoatlus was capable of flight up to 80 mph for 7 to 10 days at altitudes of 15,000 ft.



          Quetzalcoatlus was built very differently from a dragon, with wings far to the back (see figure), but the important thing is that a flying of that size has existed, and hence, a dragon of similar size should be possible without bending physics. If your dragon is firebreathing, it could possibly blow fire beneath itself to create brief thermals for quick lift-me-ups.


          enter image description here







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 days ago









          Klaus Æ. MogensenKlaus Æ. Mogensen

          1,8381511




          1,8381511





















              0












              $begingroup$

              No, the square cube law applies to many aspects of flight, the wings have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animals.



              As for changing the muscles it will not help, making a muscle shorter also makes the distance it can travel, that is the length change during contraction, smaller, your muscles will be super powerful but move all of half an inch. Which means your dragon can't really flap its wings. trading length for thickness doesn't gain you any flight capabilities. the total lift generated does not improve by making the muscles shorter and wider.



              Making the bones stronger helps by reducing the overall weight of animal and reducing the weight of wings specifically, a lighter wing requires less force to move the same amount of air (because the muscles have to move the wing as well as the air). Because of this the gains you can get are pretty small, not insignificant but not all that great either. The wings still have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animal, that is the real killer about the square cube law, the mass of the animal and the amount of air you need to displace to counteract it.



              The power to mass relationship of muscles is a pretty hard limit, birds have done everything they can while keeping the muscles functional. You can have system to reclaim so of that energy (kangaroo tails) but the initial energy still needs to come from the muscles. As long as dragons are carrying around superfluous limbs they will be hard pressed to even reach the same size as birds.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                Okay, time for plan B.
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:32










              • $begingroup$
                But before I do that, what about levers?
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:39










              • $begingroup$
                muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Apr 14 at 22:46















              0












              $begingroup$

              No, the square cube law applies to many aspects of flight, the wings have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animals.



              As for changing the muscles it will not help, making a muscle shorter also makes the distance it can travel, that is the length change during contraction, smaller, your muscles will be super powerful but move all of half an inch. Which means your dragon can't really flap its wings. trading length for thickness doesn't gain you any flight capabilities. the total lift generated does not improve by making the muscles shorter and wider.



              Making the bones stronger helps by reducing the overall weight of animal and reducing the weight of wings specifically, a lighter wing requires less force to move the same amount of air (because the muscles have to move the wing as well as the air). Because of this the gains you can get are pretty small, not insignificant but not all that great either. The wings still have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animal, that is the real killer about the square cube law, the mass of the animal and the amount of air you need to displace to counteract it.



              The power to mass relationship of muscles is a pretty hard limit, birds have done everything they can while keeping the muscles functional. You can have system to reclaim so of that energy (kangaroo tails) but the initial energy still needs to come from the muscles. As long as dragons are carrying around superfluous limbs they will be hard pressed to even reach the same size as birds.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$












              • $begingroup$
                Okay, time for plan B.
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:32










              • $begingroup$
                But before I do that, what about levers?
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:39










              • $begingroup$
                muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Apr 14 at 22:46













              0












              0








              0





              $begingroup$

              No, the square cube law applies to many aspects of flight, the wings have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animals.



              As for changing the muscles it will not help, making a muscle shorter also makes the distance it can travel, that is the length change during contraction, smaller, your muscles will be super powerful but move all of half an inch. Which means your dragon can't really flap its wings. trading length for thickness doesn't gain you any flight capabilities. the total lift generated does not improve by making the muscles shorter and wider.



              Making the bones stronger helps by reducing the overall weight of animal and reducing the weight of wings specifically, a lighter wing requires less force to move the same amount of air (because the muscles have to move the wing as well as the air). Because of this the gains you can get are pretty small, not insignificant but not all that great either. The wings still have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animal, that is the real killer about the square cube law, the mass of the animal and the amount of air you need to displace to counteract it.



              The power to mass relationship of muscles is a pretty hard limit, birds have done everything they can while keeping the muscles functional. You can have system to reclaim so of that energy (kangaroo tails) but the initial energy still needs to come from the muscles. As long as dragons are carrying around superfluous limbs they will be hard pressed to even reach the same size as birds.






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              No, the square cube law applies to many aspects of flight, the wings have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animals.



              As for changing the muscles it will not help, making a muscle shorter also makes the distance it can travel, that is the length change during contraction, smaller, your muscles will be super powerful but move all of half an inch. Which means your dragon can't really flap its wings. trading length for thickness doesn't gain you any flight capabilities. the total lift generated does not improve by making the muscles shorter and wider.



              Making the bones stronger helps by reducing the overall weight of animal and reducing the weight of wings specifically, a lighter wing requires less force to move the same amount of air (because the muscles have to move the wing as well as the air). Because of this the gains you can get are pretty small, not insignificant but not all that great either. The wings still have to move enough air to counteract the weight of the animal, that is the real killer about the square cube law, the mass of the animal and the amount of air you need to displace to counteract it.



              The power to mass relationship of muscles is a pretty hard limit, birds have done everything they can while keeping the muscles functional. You can have system to reclaim so of that energy (kangaroo tails) but the initial energy still needs to come from the muscles. As long as dragons are carrying around superfluous limbs they will be hard pressed to even reach the same size as birds.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 2 days ago

























              answered Apr 14 at 18:23









              JohnJohn

              36.3k1048122




              36.3k1048122











              • $begingroup$
                Okay, time for plan B.
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:32










              • $begingroup$
                But before I do that, what about levers?
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:39










              • $begingroup$
                muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Apr 14 at 22:46
















              • $begingroup$
                Okay, time for plan B.
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:32










              • $begingroup$
                But before I do that, what about levers?
                $endgroup$
                – Mephistopheles
                Apr 14 at 18:39










              • $begingroup$
                muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
                $endgroup$
                – John
                Apr 14 at 22:46















              $begingroup$
              Okay, time for plan B.
              $endgroup$
              – Mephistopheles
              Apr 14 at 18:32




              $begingroup$
              Okay, time for plan B.
              $endgroup$
              – Mephistopheles
              Apr 14 at 18:32












              $begingroup$
              But before I do that, what about levers?
              $endgroup$
              – Mephistopheles
              Apr 14 at 18:39




              $begingroup$
              But before I do that, what about levers?
              $endgroup$
              – Mephistopheles
              Apr 14 at 18:39












              $begingroup$
              muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
              $endgroup$
              – John
              Apr 14 at 22:46




              $begingroup$
              muscles already use leverage, The nature of muscles however means leverage can't gain you very much, leverage is a trade off between distance and power, basically the same trade off you can do with muscles. The total amount of energy and thus muscle is the same.
              $endgroup$
              – John
              Apr 14 at 22:46











              0












              $begingroup$

              The main problems with a big dragon are, by increasing order of importance:



              • Muscle power density

              There can be linear motors (in a broad sense, what muscles are) that are powerful enough per mass or volume. For an unusual evolution that solved the latter problems, this would be straightforward enough. As we'll see later, this is not even the limiting factor in human strength under normal circumstances.



              • Muscle strength

              The muscle has to not tear itself and its supports apart (something human muscles will do if you use them at max power). Look up tetanus symptoms - or not, muscles at full power are horrific stuff. But there are materials stronger than human tissues that exist, and that could reinforce dragon tissues. Carbon nanotubes and graphene are rather popular choices, nowadays. Aggregated diamond nanorods can make for pretty nice bones as well.



              • Fuel intake

              Muscles need oxygen and sugar (or whatever this organism may use). Those are carried by blood. Sugar level could be increases quite a lot with the right biochemistery, as long as it can metabolize its reserves (probably fat) fast enough to keep up. Oxygen is a bit trickier. Blood could carry more, but oxygen intake is limited by the lungs. They would need not only big ones, but probably something more efficient like a biological supercharger. Waste products like carbon dioxyde need to be removed, but solutions to intake should double as exhaust here.



              • Heat management

              Probably the most critical, and often considered the biggest limiter in muscle strength for large organism, due to the square-cube law: muscle volume (and theoretically, strength, but also waste heat generation) goes up with the volume, while muscle surface (and its ability to evacuate waste heat) goes up with the surface. So the dragon will need an extremely efficient circulatory system to get rid of heat - you won't get much better than water, so you will have to pump more blood faster and through more vessels. This is both for heat and fuel intake, in fact, as fuel intake is also limited by surface.



              Then, this heat will have to go somewhere. The aforementioned supercharger would help, but also the gigantic wings that a dragon needs to fly anyway, and that will make for nice radiators - wings must also grow larger due to the square-cube law. you can even have fun and have the supercharger pointed down, with its scalding hot exhaust a bit similar to a breadth weapon.



              Increased perspiration through, especially through the supercharger, may be necessary. There could also be small cold nodules in the muscles to help get rid of heat during a brief, intense effort, though designing such biological system to be small and light enough may be a challenge.




              There will have to be a balance between impractically large wings (to better glide) and impractically powerful muscles (for powered flight), depending on how efficient those systems are and how strong dragon tissue is. Anyway, this may either require artificial design or a very unusual evolution, but those may help grow dragons just a bit larger. I suspect the dragon would only be capable of punctual intense effort to take flight, and then mostly glide, like the extinct Quetzalcoatlus mentioned in the answer of Klaus Æ. Mogensen.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$

















                0












                $begingroup$

                The main problems with a big dragon are, by increasing order of importance:



                • Muscle power density

                There can be linear motors (in a broad sense, what muscles are) that are powerful enough per mass or volume. For an unusual evolution that solved the latter problems, this would be straightforward enough. As we'll see later, this is not even the limiting factor in human strength under normal circumstances.



                • Muscle strength

                The muscle has to not tear itself and its supports apart (something human muscles will do if you use them at max power). Look up tetanus symptoms - or not, muscles at full power are horrific stuff. But there are materials stronger than human tissues that exist, and that could reinforce dragon tissues. Carbon nanotubes and graphene are rather popular choices, nowadays. Aggregated diamond nanorods can make for pretty nice bones as well.



                • Fuel intake

                Muscles need oxygen and sugar (or whatever this organism may use). Those are carried by blood. Sugar level could be increases quite a lot with the right biochemistery, as long as it can metabolize its reserves (probably fat) fast enough to keep up. Oxygen is a bit trickier. Blood could carry more, but oxygen intake is limited by the lungs. They would need not only big ones, but probably something more efficient like a biological supercharger. Waste products like carbon dioxyde need to be removed, but solutions to intake should double as exhaust here.



                • Heat management

                Probably the most critical, and often considered the biggest limiter in muscle strength for large organism, due to the square-cube law: muscle volume (and theoretically, strength, but also waste heat generation) goes up with the volume, while muscle surface (and its ability to evacuate waste heat) goes up with the surface. So the dragon will need an extremely efficient circulatory system to get rid of heat - you won't get much better than water, so you will have to pump more blood faster and through more vessels. This is both for heat and fuel intake, in fact, as fuel intake is also limited by surface.



                Then, this heat will have to go somewhere. The aforementioned supercharger would help, but also the gigantic wings that a dragon needs to fly anyway, and that will make for nice radiators - wings must also grow larger due to the square-cube law. you can even have fun and have the supercharger pointed down, with its scalding hot exhaust a bit similar to a breadth weapon.



                Increased perspiration through, especially through the supercharger, may be necessary. There could also be small cold nodules in the muscles to help get rid of heat during a brief, intense effort, though designing such biological system to be small and light enough may be a challenge.




                There will have to be a balance between impractically large wings (to better glide) and impractically powerful muscles (for powered flight), depending on how efficient those systems are and how strong dragon tissue is. Anyway, this may either require artificial design or a very unusual evolution, but those may help grow dragons just a bit larger. I suspect the dragon would only be capable of punctual intense effort to take flight, and then mostly glide, like the extinct Quetzalcoatlus mentioned in the answer of Klaus Æ. Mogensen.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  The main problems with a big dragon are, by increasing order of importance:



                  • Muscle power density

                  There can be linear motors (in a broad sense, what muscles are) that are powerful enough per mass or volume. For an unusual evolution that solved the latter problems, this would be straightforward enough. As we'll see later, this is not even the limiting factor in human strength under normal circumstances.



                  • Muscle strength

                  The muscle has to not tear itself and its supports apart (something human muscles will do if you use them at max power). Look up tetanus symptoms - or not, muscles at full power are horrific stuff. But there are materials stronger than human tissues that exist, and that could reinforce dragon tissues. Carbon nanotubes and graphene are rather popular choices, nowadays. Aggregated diamond nanorods can make for pretty nice bones as well.



                  • Fuel intake

                  Muscles need oxygen and sugar (or whatever this organism may use). Those are carried by blood. Sugar level could be increases quite a lot with the right biochemistery, as long as it can metabolize its reserves (probably fat) fast enough to keep up. Oxygen is a bit trickier. Blood could carry more, but oxygen intake is limited by the lungs. They would need not only big ones, but probably something more efficient like a biological supercharger. Waste products like carbon dioxyde need to be removed, but solutions to intake should double as exhaust here.



                  • Heat management

                  Probably the most critical, and often considered the biggest limiter in muscle strength for large organism, due to the square-cube law: muscle volume (and theoretically, strength, but also waste heat generation) goes up with the volume, while muscle surface (and its ability to evacuate waste heat) goes up with the surface. So the dragon will need an extremely efficient circulatory system to get rid of heat - you won't get much better than water, so you will have to pump more blood faster and through more vessels. This is both for heat and fuel intake, in fact, as fuel intake is also limited by surface.



                  Then, this heat will have to go somewhere. The aforementioned supercharger would help, but also the gigantic wings that a dragon needs to fly anyway, and that will make for nice radiators - wings must also grow larger due to the square-cube law. you can even have fun and have the supercharger pointed down, with its scalding hot exhaust a bit similar to a breadth weapon.



                  Increased perspiration through, especially through the supercharger, may be necessary. There could also be small cold nodules in the muscles to help get rid of heat during a brief, intense effort, though designing such biological system to be small and light enough may be a challenge.




                  There will have to be a balance between impractically large wings (to better glide) and impractically powerful muscles (for powered flight), depending on how efficient those systems are and how strong dragon tissue is. Anyway, this may either require artificial design or a very unusual evolution, but those may help grow dragons just a bit larger. I suspect the dragon would only be capable of punctual intense effort to take flight, and then mostly glide, like the extinct Quetzalcoatlus mentioned in the answer of Klaus Æ. Mogensen.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  The main problems with a big dragon are, by increasing order of importance:



                  • Muscle power density

                  There can be linear motors (in a broad sense, what muscles are) that are powerful enough per mass or volume. For an unusual evolution that solved the latter problems, this would be straightforward enough. As we'll see later, this is not even the limiting factor in human strength under normal circumstances.



                  • Muscle strength

                  The muscle has to not tear itself and its supports apart (something human muscles will do if you use them at max power). Look up tetanus symptoms - or not, muscles at full power are horrific stuff. But there are materials stronger than human tissues that exist, and that could reinforce dragon tissues. Carbon nanotubes and graphene are rather popular choices, nowadays. Aggregated diamond nanorods can make for pretty nice bones as well.



                  • Fuel intake

                  Muscles need oxygen and sugar (or whatever this organism may use). Those are carried by blood. Sugar level could be increases quite a lot with the right biochemistery, as long as it can metabolize its reserves (probably fat) fast enough to keep up. Oxygen is a bit trickier. Blood could carry more, but oxygen intake is limited by the lungs. They would need not only big ones, but probably something more efficient like a biological supercharger. Waste products like carbon dioxyde need to be removed, but solutions to intake should double as exhaust here.



                  • Heat management

                  Probably the most critical, and often considered the biggest limiter in muscle strength for large organism, due to the square-cube law: muscle volume (and theoretically, strength, but also waste heat generation) goes up with the volume, while muscle surface (and its ability to evacuate waste heat) goes up with the surface. So the dragon will need an extremely efficient circulatory system to get rid of heat - you won't get much better than water, so you will have to pump more blood faster and through more vessels. This is both for heat and fuel intake, in fact, as fuel intake is also limited by surface.



                  Then, this heat will have to go somewhere. The aforementioned supercharger would help, but also the gigantic wings that a dragon needs to fly anyway, and that will make for nice radiators - wings must also grow larger due to the square-cube law. you can even have fun and have the supercharger pointed down, with its scalding hot exhaust a bit similar to a breadth weapon.



                  Increased perspiration through, especially through the supercharger, may be necessary. There could also be small cold nodules in the muscles to help get rid of heat during a brief, intense effort, though designing such biological system to be small and light enough may be a challenge.




                  There will have to be a balance between impractically large wings (to better glide) and impractically powerful muscles (for powered flight), depending on how efficient those systems are and how strong dragon tissue is. Anyway, this may either require artificial design or a very unusual evolution, but those may help grow dragons just a bit larger. I suspect the dragon would only be capable of punctual intense effort to take flight, and then mostly glide, like the extinct Quetzalcoatlus mentioned in the answer of Klaus Æ. Mogensen.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 2 days ago









                  EthEth

                  2,9931822




                  2,9931822



























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                      대한민국 목차 국명 지리 역사 정치 국방 경제 사회 문화 국제 순위 관련 항목 각주 외부 링크 둘러보기 메뉴북위 37° 34′ 08″ 동경 126° 58′ 36″ / 북위 37.568889° 동경 126.976667°  / 37.568889; 126.976667ehThe Korean Repository문단을 편집문단을 편집추가해Clarkson PLC 사Report for Selected Countries and Subjects-Korea“Human Development Index and its components: P.198”“http://www.law.go.kr/%EB%B2%95%EB%A0%B9/%EB%8C%80%ED%95%9C%EB%AF%BC%EA%B5%AD%EA%B5%AD%EA%B8%B0%EB%B2%95”"한국은 국제법상 한반도 유일 합법정부 아니다" - 오마이뉴스 모바일Report for Selected Countries and Subjects: South Korea격동의 역사와 함께한 조선일보 90년 : 조선일보 인수해 혁신시킨 신석우, 임시정부 때는 '대한민국' 국호(國號) 정해《우리가 몰랐던 우리 역사: 나라 이름의 비밀을 찾아가는 역사 여행》“남북 공식호칭 ‘남한’‘북한’으로 쓴다”“Corea 대 Korea, 누가 이긴 거야?”국내기후자료 - 한국[김대중 前 대통령 서거] 과감한 구조개혁 'DJ노믹스'로 최단기간 환란극복 :: 네이버 뉴스“이라크 "韓-쿠르드 유전개발 MOU 승인 안해"(종합)”“해외 우리국민 추방사례 43%가 일본”차기전차 K2'흑표'의 세계 최고 전력 분석, 쿠키뉴스 엄기영, 2007-03-02두산인프라, 헬기잡는 장갑차 'K21'...내년부터 공급, 고뉴스 이대준, 2008-10-30과거 내용 찾기mk 뉴스 - 구매력 기준으로 보면 한국 1인당 소득 3만弗과거 내용 찾기"The N-11: More Than an Acronym"Archived조선일보 최우석, 2008-11-01Global 500 2008: Countries - South Korea“몇년째 '시한폭탄'... 가계부채, 올해는 터질까”가구당 부채 5000만원 처음 넘어서“‘빚’으로 내몰리는 사회.. 위기의 가계대출”“[경제365] 공공부문 부채 급증…800조 육박”“"소득 양극화 다소 완화...불평등은 여전"”“공정사회·공생발전 한참 멀었네”iSuppli,08年2QのDRAMシェア・ランキングを発表(08/8/11)South Korea dominates shipbuilding industry | Stock Market News & Stocks to Watch from StraightStocks한국 자동차 생산, 3년 연속 세계 5위자동차수출 '현대-삼성 웃고 기아-대우-쌍용은 울고' 과거 내용 찾기동반성장위 창립 1주년 맞아Archived"중기적합 3개업종 합의 무시한 채 선정"李대통령, 사업 무분별 확장 소상공인 생계 위협 질타삼성-LG, 서민업종인 빵·분식사업 잇따라 철수상생은 뒷전…SSM ‘몸집 불리기’ 혈안Archived“경부고속도에 '아시안하이웨이' 표지판”'철의 실크로드' 앞서 '말(言)의 실크로드'부터, 프레시안 정창현, 2008-10-01“'서울 지하철은 안전한가?'”“서울시 “올해 안에 모든 지하철역 스크린도어 설치””“부산지하철 1,2호선 승강장 안전펜스 설치 완료”“전교조, 정부 노조 통계서 처음 빠져”“[Weekly BIZ] 도요타 '제로 이사회'가 리콜 사태 불러들였다”“S Korea slams high tuition costs”““정치가 여론 양극화 부채질… 합리주의 절실””“〈"`촛불집회'는 민주주의의 질적 변화 상징"〉”““촛불집회가 민주주의 왜곡 초래””“국민 65%, "한국 노사관계 대립적"”“한국 국가경쟁력 27위‥노사관계 '꼴찌'”“제대로 형성되지 않은 대한민국 이념지형”“[신년기획-갈등의 시대] 갈등지수 OECD 4위…사회적 손실 GDP 27% 무려 300조”“2012 총선-대선의 키워드는 '국민과 소통'”“한국 삶의 질 27위, 2000년과 2008년 연속 하위권 머물러”“[해피 코리아] 행복점수 68점…해외 평가선 '낙제점'”“한국 어린이·청소년 행복지수 3년 연속 OECD ‘꼴찌’”“한국 이혼율 OECD중 8위”“[통계청] 한국 이혼율 OECD 4위”“오피니언 [이렇게 생각한다] `부부의 날` 에 돌아본 이혼율 1위 한국”“Suicide Rates by Country, Global Health Observatory Data Repository.”“1. 또 다른 차별”“오피니언 [편집자에게] '왕따'와 '패거리 정치' 심리는 닮은꼴”“[미래한국리포트] 무한경쟁에 빠진 대한민국”“대학생 98% "외모가 경쟁력이라는 말 동의"”“특급호텔 웨딩·200만원대 유모차… "남보다 더…" 호화病, 고질병 됐다”“[스트레스 공화국] ① 경쟁사회, 스트레스 쌓인다”““매일 30여명 자살 한국, 의사보다 무속인에…””“"자살 부르는 '우울증', 환자 중 85% 치료 안 받아"”“정신병원을 가다”“대한민국도 ‘묻지마 범죄’,안전지대 아니다”“유엔 "학생 '성적 지향'에 따른 차별 금지하라"”“유엔아동권리위원회 보고서 및 번역본 원문”“고졸 성공스토리 담은 '제빵왕 김탁구' 드라마 나온다”“‘빛 좋은 개살구’ 고졸 취업…실습 대신 착취”원본 문서“정신건강, 사회적 편견부터 고쳐드립니다”‘소통’과 ‘행복’에 목 마른 사회가 잠들어 있던 ‘심리학’ 깨웠다“[포토] 사유리-곽금주 교수의 유쾌한 심리상담”“"올해 한국인 평균 영화관람횟수 세계 1위"(종합)”“[게임연중기획] 게임은 문화다-여가활동 1순위 게임”“영화속 ‘영어 지상주의’ …“왠지 씁쓸한데””“2월 `신문 부수 인증기관` 지정..방송법 후속작업”“무료신문 성장동력 ‘차별성’과 ‘갈등해소’”대한민국 국회 법률지식정보시스템"Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project: South Korea"“amp;vwcd=MT_ZTITLE&path=인구·가구%20>%20인구총조사%20>%20인구부문%20>%20 총조사인구(2005)%20>%20전수부문&oper_YN=Y&item=&keyword=종교별%20인구& amp;lang_mode=kor&list_id= 2005년 통계청 인구 총조사”원본 문서“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2009)”“한국인이 좋아하는 취미와 운동 (2004-2014)”Archived“한국, `부분적 언론자유국' 강등〈프리덤하우스〉”“국경없는기자회 "한국, 인터넷감시 대상국"”“한국, 조선산업 1위 유지(S. Korea Stays Top Shipbuilding Nation) RZD-Partner Portal”원본 문서“한국, 4년 만에 ‘선박건조 1위’”“옛 마산시,인터넷속도 세계 1위”“"한국 초고속 인터넷망 세계1위"”“인터넷·휴대폰 요금, 외국보다 훨씬 비싸”“한국 관세행정 6년 연속 세계 '1위'”“한국 교통사고 사망자 수 OECD 회원국 중 2위”“결핵 후진국' 한국, 환자가 급증한 이유는”“수술은 신중해야… 자칫하면 생명 위협”대한민국분류대한민국의 지도대한민국 정부대표 다국어포털대한민국 전자정부대한민국 국회한국방송공사about korea and information korea브리태니커 백과사전(한국편)론리플래닛의 정보(한국편)CIA의 세계 정보(한국편)마리암 부디아 (Mariam Budia),『한국: 하늘이 내린 한 폭의 그림』, 서울: 트랜스라틴 19호 (2012년 3월)대한민국ehehehehehehehehehehehehehehWorldCat132441370n791268020000 0001 2308 81034078029-6026373548cb11863345f(데이터)00573706ge128495