Probabilities in non-stationary statesIs there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?It appears that stationary states aren't so stationaryWhy is time evolution of wavefunctions non-trivial?Transition Probabilities for the Perturbed Harmonic OscillatorQuantum Harmonic Oscillator and the Classical LimitDoes angular momentum of hydrogen atom imply motion of electron around the nucleus?Motivation for transition probabilities in quantum mechanicsGeneral solution of states of time dependent HamiltonianGround state energy in terms of partition functionWhy do the matrix elements of an operator correspond to the Fourier components of the observable in Heisenberg's Matrix Mechanics?Find the function $G(x,y,t,t_0)$ such that $psi(x,t)=int_-infty^inftydy G(x,y,t,t_0) psi(y,t_0)$ is the time evolution equation

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Probabilities in non-stationary states


Is there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?It appears that stationary states aren't so stationaryWhy is time evolution of wavefunctions non-trivial?Transition Probabilities for the Perturbed Harmonic OscillatorQuantum Harmonic Oscillator and the Classical LimitDoes angular momentum of hydrogen atom imply motion of electron around the nucleus?Motivation for transition probabilities in quantum mechanicsGeneral solution of states of time dependent HamiltonianGround state energy in terms of partition functionWhy do the matrix elements of an operator correspond to the Fourier components of the observable in Heisenberg's Matrix Mechanics?Find the function $G(x,y,t,t_0)$ such that $psi(x,t)=int_-infty^inftydy G(x,y,t,t_0) psi(y,t_0)$ is the time evolution equation













6












$begingroup$


I'm confusing myself. Let's represent some state in the eigenbasis for Hydrogen:



$$|psirangle = sum_n,l,m|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psirangle.$$



Now denote the initial state by $psi(t=0)equivpsi_o$, and hit this thing with time evolution:



$$U|psirangle = sum_n,l,me^-iE_nt/hbar|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



I'm wanting to know what the probability is that I measure some specific $(l^*,m^*)$ at some later time $t$. Looking at this, we have



$$P(t,l=l^*,m=m^*)=sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|U|psirangle|^2 \ = sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|psi_orangle|^2.$$



This has no time dependence, and I feel I'm missing something obvious. For example, say we prepare the state to initially be $|psirangle = a|1,0,0rangle+b|2,1,1rangle+c|3,1,1rangle$, where all constants are real. This would imply from the above, after normalization, that



$$P(l=1,m=1) = (b^2+c^2)/(a^2+b^2+c^2),$$



independent of time. What am I missing here? Obviously the probability density function has cross terms, so I do not see why this should physically be the case, thus sparking my question.



====================================================================
Closure:



As pointed out by user 'The Vee', my confusion stemmed from this observable being an integral of the eigenbasis representation. I had internally generalized the time dependence of observable expectations, when this is not the case if that observable is also being used as a quantum number in the state representation. The general time evolution of some observable $Omega$ in this basis would be



$$langleOmega (t)rangle = langle psi|U^dagger Omega U|psirangle \ = sum_n',l',m'sum_n,l,me^i(E_n'-E_n)t/hbarlangle n',l',m'|Omega|n,l,mranglelangle n',l',m'|psi_orangle^*langle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



If $Omega = L^2$ or $L_z$, then orthogonality reduces this to



$$langle L^2rangle = sum_n,l,mhbar^2 l(l+1)|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2 \
langle L_zrangle = sum_n,l,mhbar m|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2$$



No time dependence of the expectations, hence no time dependence of observation probability; all is well. If $[H,Omega]neq 0$, then all of those cross terms do not drop out, and we see the oscillation in the exponential depending on the energy difference of states. I've kept it in this basis to provide consistency with the above question, but we can see how this generalizes to whatever CSCO we use, as user 'gented' does in his answer by using a collective notation $|arangle$.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    6












    $begingroup$


    I'm confusing myself. Let's represent some state in the eigenbasis for Hydrogen:



    $$|psirangle = sum_n,l,m|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psirangle.$$



    Now denote the initial state by $psi(t=0)equivpsi_o$, and hit this thing with time evolution:



    $$U|psirangle = sum_n,l,me^-iE_nt/hbar|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



    I'm wanting to know what the probability is that I measure some specific $(l^*,m^*)$ at some later time $t$. Looking at this, we have



    $$P(t,l=l^*,m=m^*)=sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|U|psirangle|^2 \ = sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|psi_orangle|^2.$$



    This has no time dependence, and I feel I'm missing something obvious. For example, say we prepare the state to initially be $|psirangle = a|1,0,0rangle+b|2,1,1rangle+c|3,1,1rangle$, where all constants are real. This would imply from the above, after normalization, that



    $$P(l=1,m=1) = (b^2+c^2)/(a^2+b^2+c^2),$$



    independent of time. What am I missing here? Obviously the probability density function has cross terms, so I do not see why this should physically be the case, thus sparking my question.



    ====================================================================
    Closure:



    As pointed out by user 'The Vee', my confusion stemmed from this observable being an integral of the eigenbasis representation. I had internally generalized the time dependence of observable expectations, when this is not the case if that observable is also being used as a quantum number in the state representation. The general time evolution of some observable $Omega$ in this basis would be



    $$langleOmega (t)rangle = langle psi|U^dagger Omega U|psirangle \ = sum_n',l',m'sum_n,l,me^i(E_n'-E_n)t/hbarlangle n',l',m'|Omega|n,l,mranglelangle n',l',m'|psi_orangle^*langle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



    If $Omega = L^2$ or $L_z$, then orthogonality reduces this to



    $$langle L^2rangle = sum_n,l,mhbar^2 l(l+1)|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2 \
    langle L_zrangle = sum_n,l,mhbar m|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2$$



    No time dependence of the expectations, hence no time dependence of observation probability; all is well. If $[H,Omega]neq 0$, then all of those cross terms do not drop out, and we see the oscillation in the exponential depending on the energy difference of states. I've kept it in this basis to provide consistency with the above question, but we can see how this generalizes to whatever CSCO we use, as user 'gented' does in his answer by using a collective notation $|arangle$.










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      6












      6








      6


      1



      $begingroup$


      I'm confusing myself. Let's represent some state in the eigenbasis for Hydrogen:



      $$|psirangle = sum_n,l,m|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psirangle.$$



      Now denote the initial state by $psi(t=0)equivpsi_o$, and hit this thing with time evolution:



      $$U|psirangle = sum_n,l,me^-iE_nt/hbar|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



      I'm wanting to know what the probability is that I measure some specific $(l^*,m^*)$ at some later time $t$. Looking at this, we have



      $$P(t,l=l^*,m=m^*)=sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|U|psirangle|^2 \ = sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|psi_orangle|^2.$$



      This has no time dependence, and I feel I'm missing something obvious. For example, say we prepare the state to initially be $|psirangle = a|1,0,0rangle+b|2,1,1rangle+c|3,1,1rangle$, where all constants are real. This would imply from the above, after normalization, that



      $$P(l=1,m=1) = (b^2+c^2)/(a^2+b^2+c^2),$$



      independent of time. What am I missing here? Obviously the probability density function has cross terms, so I do not see why this should physically be the case, thus sparking my question.



      ====================================================================
      Closure:



      As pointed out by user 'The Vee', my confusion stemmed from this observable being an integral of the eigenbasis representation. I had internally generalized the time dependence of observable expectations, when this is not the case if that observable is also being used as a quantum number in the state representation. The general time evolution of some observable $Omega$ in this basis would be



      $$langleOmega (t)rangle = langle psi|U^dagger Omega U|psirangle \ = sum_n',l',m'sum_n,l,me^i(E_n'-E_n)t/hbarlangle n',l',m'|Omega|n,l,mranglelangle n',l',m'|psi_orangle^*langle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



      If $Omega = L^2$ or $L_z$, then orthogonality reduces this to



      $$langle L^2rangle = sum_n,l,mhbar^2 l(l+1)|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2 \
      langle L_zrangle = sum_n,l,mhbar m|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2$$



      No time dependence of the expectations, hence no time dependence of observation probability; all is well. If $[H,Omega]neq 0$, then all of those cross terms do not drop out, and we see the oscillation in the exponential depending on the energy difference of states. I've kept it in this basis to provide consistency with the above question, but we can see how this generalizes to whatever CSCO we use, as user 'gented' does in his answer by using a collective notation $|arangle$.










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      I'm confusing myself. Let's represent some state in the eigenbasis for Hydrogen:



      $$|psirangle = sum_n,l,m|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psirangle.$$



      Now denote the initial state by $psi(t=0)equivpsi_o$, and hit this thing with time evolution:



      $$U|psirangle = sum_n,l,me^-iE_nt/hbar|n,l,mranglelangle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



      I'm wanting to know what the probability is that I measure some specific $(l^*,m^*)$ at some later time $t$. Looking at this, we have



      $$P(t,l=l^*,m=m^*)=sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|U|psirangle|^2 \ = sum_n|langle n,l^*,m^*|psi_orangle|^2.$$



      This has no time dependence, and I feel I'm missing something obvious. For example, say we prepare the state to initially be $|psirangle = a|1,0,0rangle+b|2,1,1rangle+c|3,1,1rangle$, where all constants are real. This would imply from the above, after normalization, that



      $$P(l=1,m=1) = (b^2+c^2)/(a^2+b^2+c^2),$$



      independent of time. What am I missing here? Obviously the probability density function has cross terms, so I do not see why this should physically be the case, thus sparking my question.



      ====================================================================
      Closure:



      As pointed out by user 'The Vee', my confusion stemmed from this observable being an integral of the eigenbasis representation. I had internally generalized the time dependence of observable expectations, when this is not the case if that observable is also being used as a quantum number in the state representation. The general time evolution of some observable $Omega$ in this basis would be



      $$langleOmega (t)rangle = langle psi|U^dagger Omega U|psirangle \ = sum_n',l',m'sum_n,l,me^i(E_n'-E_n)t/hbarlangle n',l',m'|Omega|n,l,mranglelangle n',l',m'|psi_orangle^*langle n,l,m|psi_orangle.$$



      If $Omega = L^2$ or $L_z$, then orthogonality reduces this to



      $$langle L^2rangle = sum_n,l,mhbar^2 l(l+1)|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2 \
      langle L_zrangle = sum_n,l,mhbar m|langle n,l,m|psi_orangle|^2$$



      No time dependence of the expectations, hence no time dependence of observation probability; all is well. If $[H,Omega]neq 0$, then all of those cross terms do not drop out, and we see the oscillation in the exponential depending on the energy difference of states. I've kept it in this basis to provide consistency with the above question, but we can see how this generalizes to whatever CSCO we use, as user 'gented' does in his answer by using a collective notation $|arangle$.







      quantum-mechanics atomic-physics probability time-evolution orbitals






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 2 hours ago







      dm__

















      asked 15 hours ago









      dm__dm__

      1197




      1197




















          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5












          $begingroup$

          This is in general true whenever you calculate the projection onto an eigenstate (and not a combination thereof). Let $leftarangleright_ain A$ be a set of
          eigentstates for the Hamiltionian $hatH$, a state at time $t$ can be written as
          $$
          |psi(t)rangle = sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangle.
          $$

          Its projection onto an eigenstate $|a'rangle$ is
          $$
          langle a'| psi(t)rangle = langle a'| Big(sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangleBig)=hatU(t)_a' a'langle a'|psi_0rangle
          $$

          whose norm does not depend on time as long as $hatU(t)$ only picks up a phase factor when acting onto eigenstates. This is because once a state collapses into an eigenstate, it remains there indefinitely.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            2 hours ago


















          3












          $begingroup$

          I think you're mixing up two different things. We define a stationary state as one in which all observables are time independent, and you are quite correct that if we write:



          $$ Psi = sum_i a_nlm ,psi_nlm $$



          then this is not a stationary state. There is a nice example of this in Emilio Pisanty's answer to Is there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?



          But what you appear to be expecting is that the coefficients $a_nlm$ will change with time, and they will not. All that happens is that the relative phases of the $psi_nlm$ functions changes. In practice of course the state will emit photons and collapse to the ground state, but you'd have to add a coupling to a photon for that to happen to your function.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
            $endgroup$
            – Michael Seifert
            10 hours ago



















          1












          $begingroup$

          You just happened to consider an observable (or rather, a pair of observables) that is, in fact, an integral (integrals) of motion of the system. In other words, the probability of measuring any value of $(l,m)$ is in fact not expected to change during time evolution.



          This is not true for other observables in general, but it does hold for any time-independent $A$ which commutes with the Hamiltonian. Since both $L^2$ and $L_z$ have this property, both $l$ and $m$ are integrals of motion and your result follows. (They also commute with each other which enables you to use both the measured values simultaneously.)



          For a counterexample, you may consider the probability of measuring something that is not an eigenstate of the Hamiltonian, like $|varphirangle := (|1,0,0rangle + |2,0,0rangle)/sqrt2$. I won't try to come up with an observable of which this is an eigenvector – that would only obscure the idea and at the end of the day you only need the eigenvector anyway. If you want, examples of common observables that don't commute with the hydrogen Hamiltonian are any component of position or of momentum, but there the direct calculation is complicated by the fact that these do not have eigenvalues.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            1 hour ago










          Your Answer





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          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes








          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5












          $begingroup$

          This is in general true whenever you calculate the projection onto an eigenstate (and not a combination thereof). Let $leftarangleright_ain A$ be a set of
          eigentstates for the Hamiltionian $hatH$, a state at time $t$ can be written as
          $$
          |psi(t)rangle = sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangle.
          $$

          Its projection onto an eigenstate $|a'rangle$ is
          $$
          langle a'| psi(t)rangle = langle a'| Big(sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangleBig)=hatU(t)_a' a'langle a'|psi_0rangle
          $$

          whose norm does not depend on time as long as $hatU(t)$ only picks up a phase factor when acting onto eigenstates. This is because once a state collapses into an eigenstate, it remains there indefinitely.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            2 hours ago















          5












          $begingroup$

          This is in general true whenever you calculate the projection onto an eigenstate (and not a combination thereof). Let $leftarangleright_ain A$ be a set of
          eigentstates for the Hamiltionian $hatH$, a state at time $t$ can be written as
          $$
          |psi(t)rangle = sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangle.
          $$

          Its projection onto an eigenstate $|a'rangle$ is
          $$
          langle a'| psi(t)rangle = langle a'| Big(sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangleBig)=hatU(t)_a' a'langle a'|psi_0rangle
          $$

          whose norm does not depend on time as long as $hatU(t)$ only picks up a phase factor when acting onto eigenstates. This is because once a state collapses into an eigenstate, it remains there indefinitely.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            2 hours ago













          5












          5








          5





          $begingroup$

          This is in general true whenever you calculate the projection onto an eigenstate (and not a combination thereof). Let $leftarangleright_ain A$ be a set of
          eigentstates for the Hamiltionian $hatH$, a state at time $t$ can be written as
          $$
          |psi(t)rangle = sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangle.
          $$

          Its projection onto an eigenstate $|a'rangle$ is
          $$
          langle a'| psi(t)rangle = langle a'| Big(sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangleBig)=hatU(t)_a' a'langle a'|psi_0rangle
          $$

          whose norm does not depend on time as long as $hatU(t)$ only picks up a phase factor when acting onto eigenstates. This is because once a state collapses into an eigenstate, it remains there indefinitely.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          This is in general true whenever you calculate the projection onto an eigenstate (and not a combination thereof). Let $leftarangleright_ain A$ be a set of
          eigentstates for the Hamiltionian $hatH$, a state at time $t$ can be written as
          $$
          |psi(t)rangle = sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangle.
          $$

          Its projection onto an eigenstate $|a'rangle$ is
          $$
          langle a'| psi(t)rangle = langle a'| Big(sum_ahatU(t)|aranglelangle a |psi_0rangleBig)=hatU(t)_a' a'langle a'|psi_0rangle
          $$

          whose norm does not depend on time as long as $hatU(t)$ only picks up a phase factor when acting onto eigenstates. This is because once a state collapses into an eigenstate, it remains there indefinitely.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 2 hours ago

























          answered 13 hours ago









          gentedgented

          4,562916




          4,562916











          • $begingroup$
            Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            2 hours ago
















          • $begingroup$
            Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago











          • $begingroup$
            Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            2 hours ago















          $begingroup$
          Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
          $endgroup$
          – dm__
          3 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          Accepted because it nicely shows the generality of this. It should be noted that you are explicitly assuming $|arangle$ to be collective notation for an eigenstate of the hamiltonian. Thanks for the answer!
          $endgroup$
          – dm__
          3 hours ago













          $begingroup$
          Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
          $endgroup$
          – dm__
          3 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Also, you dropped the $a$ from your bra in the summation. I tried to edit, but it won't let me. Perhaps you can modify it. It is clear from the top equation, but it could be confusing.
          $endgroup$
          – dm__
          3 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
          $endgroup$
          – gented
          2 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Yes, I noticed and fixed it :)
          $endgroup$
          – gented
          2 hours ago











          3












          $begingroup$

          I think you're mixing up two different things. We define a stationary state as one in which all observables are time independent, and you are quite correct that if we write:



          $$ Psi = sum_i a_nlm ,psi_nlm $$



          then this is not a stationary state. There is a nice example of this in Emilio Pisanty's answer to Is there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?



          But what you appear to be expecting is that the coefficients $a_nlm$ will change with time, and they will not. All that happens is that the relative phases of the $psi_nlm$ functions changes. In practice of course the state will emit photons and collapse to the ground state, but you'd have to add a coupling to a photon for that to happen to your function.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
            $endgroup$
            – Michael Seifert
            10 hours ago
















          3












          $begingroup$

          I think you're mixing up two different things. We define a stationary state as one in which all observables are time independent, and you are quite correct that if we write:



          $$ Psi = sum_i a_nlm ,psi_nlm $$



          then this is not a stationary state. There is a nice example of this in Emilio Pisanty's answer to Is there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?



          But what you appear to be expecting is that the coefficients $a_nlm$ will change with time, and they will not. All that happens is that the relative phases of the $psi_nlm$ functions changes. In practice of course the state will emit photons and collapse to the ground state, but you'd have to add a coupling to a photon for that to happen to your function.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
            $endgroup$
            – Michael Seifert
            10 hours ago














          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          I think you're mixing up two different things. We define a stationary state as one in which all observables are time independent, and you are quite correct that if we write:



          $$ Psi = sum_i a_nlm ,psi_nlm $$



          then this is not a stationary state. There is a nice example of this in Emilio Pisanty's answer to Is there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?



          But what you appear to be expecting is that the coefficients $a_nlm$ will change with time, and they will not. All that happens is that the relative phases of the $psi_nlm$ functions changes. In practice of course the state will emit photons and collapse to the ground state, but you'd have to add a coupling to a photon for that to happen to your function.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          I think you're mixing up two different things. We define a stationary state as one in which all observables are time independent, and you are quite correct that if we write:



          $$ Psi = sum_i a_nlm ,psi_nlm $$



          then this is not a stationary state. There is a nice example of this in Emilio Pisanty's answer to Is there oscillating charge in a hydrogen atom?



          But what you appear to be expecting is that the coefficients $a_nlm$ will change with time, and they will not. All that happens is that the relative phases of the $psi_nlm$ functions changes. In practice of course the state will emit photons and collapse to the ground state, but you'd have to add a coupling to a photon for that to happen to your function.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 13 hours ago









          John RennieJohn Rennie

          278k44553799




          278k44553799







          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
            $endgroup$
            – Michael Seifert
            10 hours ago













          • 1




            $begingroup$
            I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
            $endgroup$
            – Michael Seifert
            10 hours ago








          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
          $endgroup$
          – Michael Seifert
          10 hours ago





          $begingroup$
          I'm not sure what distinction you're trying to draw at the beginning of the second paragraph. Can't the change in phase of a $psi_nlm$ function be equally well viewed as a change in the coefficient $a_nlm$?
          $endgroup$
          – Michael Seifert
          10 hours ago












          1












          $begingroup$

          You just happened to consider an observable (or rather, a pair of observables) that is, in fact, an integral (integrals) of motion of the system. In other words, the probability of measuring any value of $(l,m)$ is in fact not expected to change during time evolution.



          This is not true for other observables in general, but it does hold for any time-independent $A$ which commutes with the Hamiltonian. Since both $L^2$ and $L_z$ have this property, both $l$ and $m$ are integrals of motion and your result follows. (They also commute with each other which enables you to use both the measured values simultaneously.)



          For a counterexample, you may consider the probability of measuring something that is not an eigenstate of the Hamiltonian, like $|varphirangle := (|1,0,0rangle + |2,0,0rangle)/sqrt2$. I won't try to come up with an observable of which this is an eigenvector – that would only obscure the idea and at the end of the day you only need the eigenvector anyway. If you want, examples of common observables that don't commute with the hydrogen Hamiltonian are any component of position or of momentum, but there the direct calculation is complicated by the fact that these do not have eigenvalues.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            1 hour ago















          1












          $begingroup$

          You just happened to consider an observable (or rather, a pair of observables) that is, in fact, an integral (integrals) of motion of the system. In other words, the probability of measuring any value of $(l,m)$ is in fact not expected to change during time evolution.



          This is not true for other observables in general, but it does hold for any time-independent $A$ which commutes with the Hamiltonian. Since both $L^2$ and $L_z$ have this property, both $l$ and $m$ are integrals of motion and your result follows. (They also commute with each other which enables you to use both the measured values simultaneously.)



          For a counterexample, you may consider the probability of measuring something that is not an eigenstate of the Hamiltonian, like $|varphirangle := (|1,0,0rangle + |2,0,0rangle)/sqrt2$. I won't try to come up with an observable of which this is an eigenvector – that would only obscure the idea and at the end of the day you only need the eigenvector anyway. If you want, examples of common observables that don't commute with the hydrogen Hamiltonian are any component of position or of momentum, but there the direct calculation is complicated by the fact that these do not have eigenvalues.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            1 hour ago













          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          You just happened to consider an observable (or rather, a pair of observables) that is, in fact, an integral (integrals) of motion of the system. In other words, the probability of measuring any value of $(l,m)$ is in fact not expected to change during time evolution.



          This is not true for other observables in general, but it does hold for any time-independent $A$ which commutes with the Hamiltonian. Since both $L^2$ and $L_z$ have this property, both $l$ and $m$ are integrals of motion and your result follows. (They also commute with each other which enables you to use both the measured values simultaneously.)



          For a counterexample, you may consider the probability of measuring something that is not an eigenstate of the Hamiltonian, like $|varphirangle := (|1,0,0rangle + |2,0,0rangle)/sqrt2$. I won't try to come up with an observable of which this is an eigenvector – that would only obscure the idea and at the end of the day you only need the eigenvector anyway. If you want, examples of common observables that don't commute with the hydrogen Hamiltonian are any component of position or of momentum, but there the direct calculation is complicated by the fact that these do not have eigenvalues.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          You just happened to consider an observable (or rather, a pair of observables) that is, in fact, an integral (integrals) of motion of the system. In other words, the probability of measuring any value of $(l,m)$ is in fact not expected to change during time evolution.



          This is not true for other observables in general, but it does hold for any time-independent $A$ which commutes with the Hamiltonian. Since both $L^2$ and $L_z$ have this property, both $l$ and $m$ are integrals of motion and your result follows. (They also commute with each other which enables you to use both the measured values simultaneously.)



          For a counterexample, you may consider the probability of measuring something that is not an eigenstate of the Hamiltonian, like $|varphirangle := (|1,0,0rangle + |2,0,0rangle)/sqrt2$. I won't try to come up with an observable of which this is an eigenvector – that would only obscure the idea and at the end of the day you only need the eigenvector anyway. If you want, examples of common observables that don't commute with the hydrogen Hamiltonian are any component of position or of momentum, but there the direct calculation is complicated by the fact that these do not have eigenvalues.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          The VeeThe Vee

          833412




          833412











          • $begingroup$
            Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            1 hour ago
















          • $begingroup$
            Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
            $endgroup$
            – dm__
            3 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
            $endgroup$
            – gented
            1 hour ago















          $begingroup$
          Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
          $endgroup$
          – dm__
          3 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Hi there, thanks for the answer, I appreciate it. That was exactly my confusion. I added a 'closure' to the bottom mathematically showing this.
          $endgroup$
          – dm__
          3 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
          $endgroup$
          – gented
          1 hour ago




          $begingroup$
          This is actually a good description of why at the end of the day integral of motion must commute with the Hamiltonian (because otherwise not being diagonal on the eigenstates, the probabilities may not be independent of time).
          $endgroup$
          – gented
          1 hour ago

















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